F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained • Hacker News Board

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#71

Post by spacecadet » Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 1:56 PM UTC

Spearchucker wrote: post #61

I stopped watching F1 about 10 years ago, and these new changes just reaffirm that decision. It's no longer about best car + best driver. It's about mixing it up, making it random, to maximise viewer numbers. Not the kind of racing I go for.

No it isn't! Racing has always been the source of innovation in automotive- safety harness for example.. ABS, etc

Its exactly the fact that racing became "about best car + drive" that innovation slumped and we still drive cars that are pretty much no different than when Fuel Injection was introduced in the 70's!

I welcome these challenges.

I have been slowly developing my own diesel/electric hybrid using similar technology, it makes more sense than full electric at this point in time. Hub motors are very inexpensive and modern diesels running on waste bio can last upwards of 1,000,000 miles. Thanks to Audi and their endurance Diesel R8 racecar... They challenged themselves under no regulation and it helped prove a technology.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#72

Post by arethuza » Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 1:56 PM UTC

codfrantic wrote: post #68

cjrp wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an area that has been slow to change over the years, due to the small amount of turbocharged vehicles available new. Most turbos are used in heavy machinery (garbage trucks, big rigs, etc.), a slowly changing industry. I'm not sure this is true in England - most diesel cars on the road have a turbocharger.

Most of europe, especially VAG[π] cars are turbocharged, either TDI for basically all Diesels and more and more (T)FSI gasoline powered cars. Also look at the Audi R10 TDI [φ] [π] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group [φ] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R10_TDI

VAG have a rather nice twin-charged 1.4L engine - with a supercharger and a turbocharger - the former being used at low revs and the latter at high revs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petrol...

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#73

Post by T-zex » Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 1:58 PM UTC

pbo wrote: post #65

I wrote firmware (~20kLocs) for a power (electrical) supply that's part of one such power train. This kind of development is very demanding, because you can't afford to leave any bugs in your program but at the same time you're always shipping late because of tight schedules and often blurry specifications. On top of that hardware and software development cycles are concurrent, so no target hardware available when yo…

Wow! Have you developed the software for the ECU?

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#74

Post by josephlord » Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 1:58 PM UTC

sanoli wrote: post #5

There are so many rules dictating the design of an F1 chassis/engine that I wonder how much faster a "anything goes" car would go.

I don't think "anything goes" would be wise but there may room for an interesting race with very minimal rules. e.g.

1) Total fuel limit (of specified type etc.). Gives all cars equal energy budget to use. Maybe some fuel could be traded for pre-charged batteries for KERS type systems.

2) Size limits. Must be narrow enough to overtake, short enough to fit in a pit box and maybe a height limit too.

3) Safety requirements and possibly a minimum weight to allow for sufficient safety without overly compromising safety.

There would still be plenty of things that could be done that are currently forbidden such as active aerodynamics so the car could actually have one or more rudders to assist with cornering etc. and that wings could flatten into aerodynamic shapes.

I could almost imagine the cars no longer using their brakes before corners but instead increasing downforce enough to take the corner and that increased drag being the only reason that they slow down at all.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#75

Post by knitatoms » Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 2:05 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #36

marvin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real question is how fast an "anything goes" F1 car would go around a racetrack. Especially if you remove the human driver, or make the car remote-controlled.

> Especially if you remove the human driver, or make the car remote-controlled. Now that's something I'd tune in for! A couple of high budget vehicles and sophisticated driver AIs slugging it out on a racetrack, that would definitely be interesting.

Agreed - removing the driver would make it much more interesting. Safety regulations could then be relaxed considerably so we'd see more spectacular crashes. Also a human's inability to control a vehicle during high G force cornering severely restricts the speed you can allow the cars to go.

And the driver salaries could be donated to charity ;-)

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#76

Post by TylerE » Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 2:07 PM UTC

widdershins wrote: post #66

T-zex wrote: post #41

I really hope this will reduce the number of times commentators have to say a word "tires". Couldn't care less about saving tires. Its like a footballer saving a ball, or boxer his gloves. The same applies to the engine.

Huh? Tires have always been one of the most strategic elements of F1.

Not "always". Prior to the downforce era, it wasn't unusual to use a single set of tires for several race weekends.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#77

Post by VLM » Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 2:09 PM UTC

tobylane wrote: post #40

k__ wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it get any faster if they didn't need a driver?

Likely, as the monocoque (safety cell) has to be fairly tall. It's said above that the limit was 6G, which F1 nearly matches [1] (that GP wasn't for the most powerful engines in ~2000). With no space for driver there could be more aero meaning it could go round a corner like that faster, causing more sideways G. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Grand_Prix

Aside from space issues I don't think you'd need to spend any weight on safety gear at all.

To keep the audience alive, the track safety upgrades would be unfortunately expensive for track owners.

To keep the cars on the road, I suspect expensive track modifications would eventually be required. Perfectly vertical turns, perhaps.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#78

Post by codfrantic » Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 2:10 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #72

codfrantic wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of europe, especially VAG[π] cars are turbocharged, either TDI for basically all Diesels and more and more (T)FSI gasoline powered cars. Also look at the Audi R10 TDI [φ] [π] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group [φ] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R10_TDI

VAG have a rather nice twin-charged 1.4L engine - with a supercharger and a turbocharger - the former being used at low revs and the latter at high revs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petrol...

Indeed, updated my comment to be more accurate :)

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#79

Post by manojlds » Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 2:12 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #59

vanderZwan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While certainly impressive, that's been true of F1 cars for decades.

As you say "decades" I did a cursory search for a video (assuming perhaps at some point during that time someone thought to make one.) I found this interesting video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcPsSI4O2S0 but would certainly like to see an F1 care drive literally upside-down (normal to horizontal) if you have anything like that. I just searched for a second on YouTube.

There was this ad - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=izrNv4nMxAg

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#80

Post by paulyg » Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 2:13 PM UTC

bliti wrote: post #52

The interesting bit here is the development of the turbochargers. This is an area that has been slow to change over the years, due to the small amount of turbocharged vehicles available new[1]. Most turbos are used in heavy machinery (garbage trucks, big rigs, etc.), a slowly changing industry. They do not face the same regulations as regular autos. Seems they are doing away with the wastegate and replacing it with a…

Turbocharging has been making a huge comeback in the US over the last 5 years, driven mainly by the increase in fuel economy it affords. The biggest example of this is Ford's Ecoboost engines, which are all turbocharged and direct injection. Many 2014 Cadillacs are V6 turbos. There are countless 1.8 and 2.0 VW and Audi turbos on our roads. Let's not forget all the WRXs and Mini Cooper S, Acura RDX (<=2012), Mazda CX7, Hyundai Veloster and Sonata.