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F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

bbc.co.uk

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Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#51
post #46
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video is an interesting comparison of just how fast F1 cars are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2cNqaPSHv0 IIRC some of those GT cars that look like snails compared to F1 cars are "anything goes". However, here is a truly anything goes car (that has broken the speed barrier on land): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKQ-xj5C2m8 So yeah, an anything goes car will go much faster than an F1 car. But it's going to su…

What I meant was what if an F1 team of designers didn't have to be constrained by any rules and could build their dream F1 car. For example, there was one car a couple of decades ago (I think early 80's maybe?) that used a sort of vaccum effect to keep the car sucked to the ground. It improved cornering speeds greatly, but the device was banned. I googled some and found this: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.…

> a sort of vaccum effect to keep the car sucked to the ground

Ground effect[0], thoroughly used in LMP to gain downforce without suffering as much drag as with a wing.

Here's what happens when the effect breaks down[1].

[0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_(cars)

[1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIJ4q3PD57A

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#52
The interesting bit here is the development of the turbochargers. This is an area that has been slow to change over the years, due to the small amount of turbocharged vehicles available new[1]. Most turbos are used in heavy machinery (garbage trucks, big rigs, etc.), a slowly changing industry. They do not face the same regulations as regular autos.

Seems they are doing away with the wastegate and replacing it with an electric motor. Using the energy of the engine exhaust to generate electricity. This energy is normally lost or wasted on a typical turbocharged or naturally aspirated engine. The interesting part is that wastegates are simple flow valves that control how much exhaust gasses go through the turbo's turbine. Doing away with the wastegate means that they will be limiting the amount of airflow that goes into the engine in some other way. I doubt that they are using all of the boost that the turbo creates, because it would be a risky proposition to do so. Changes in ambient temperature would greatly impact the fuel delivery system. Not to mention it would increase the possibility of the fuel pre-igniting inside the combustion chamber.

There have been developments in the turbocharger industry, most have been in the way of better materials and turbine/compressor blade designs. I know that Garret (a manufacturer of turbos) has developed a turbocharger with a built-in electric motor. The motor is used to eliminate lag by spinning the turbocharger to a pre-defined RPM. Turbo lag is simply the period of time that it takes a turbocharger to spin up to the speed and start producing boost (back pressure inside the engine). By having an electric motor spin the turbo to a given setting, turbo lag is eliminated, and fuel economy is improved. How may fuel economy be improved? In many vehicles, turbo lag is fought against through the fuel maps (the amount of fuel deliver at a given RPM point). In cases, more fuel is fed to the engine to increase the expansion of the exhaust gases. An exhaust gas that has more unburned fuel in itself will burn most of that excess in the high temperature area between the engine block and the turbocharger. This expansion greatly increases the turbo speed. Though this comes at a cost of higher exhaust emissions, and lower fuel economy.

There have been developments into a new type of turbocharging system. Where the turbo unit is driven by by a hydraulic pump, rather than the engine exhaust. In this system, the turbo speed would rise by increasing the pump speed. For some reason this never reached production. But it could have revolutionized the industry. In a way, having an electric motor in place of the wastegate might turn out to provide the same benefits this system would have provided to passenger autos. Being able to re-capture energy lost in the exhaust system would be a win in terms of efficency.

[1] In the USA market. There are plenty of turbocharged diesel autos in the rest of the world. They are not common in the USA, though.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#53
post #41

I really hope this will reduce the number of times commentators have to say a word "tires". Couldn't care less about saving tires. Its like a footballer saving a ball, or boxer his gloves. The same applies to the engine.

Well, the thing is, it costs time to replace tires So you have to balance tire wear with the time gained by pushing it to the limit They also have an increased engine life this year, I think each team must go through 5 engines during the season, as opposed to 8 engines And you can bet they're designed to last as much as needed but not much more.

Absolutely. Tire management is important, but it should not be essential. Reckless breaking with wheels locked should have its consequences. I'd rather see wheel to wheel action than listen to the comments about how this guy in a second place will have to save his tires and give up positions to score a few points.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#54
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are so many rules dictating the design of an F1 chassis/engine that I wonder how much faster a "anything goes" car would go. The cars could be made so fast that humans could not drive the cars any more. In addition, safety of the audience would be compromised and the costs would be prohibitively expensive to maintain competition. While there has been a set of rules and regulations always in Formula 1 (that's…

A meaningful "anything goes" tournament (compare "freestyle chess") would probably have as the single rule that there can't be a driver in the car. That, on the other hand, would probably remove most of the audience appeal, as it's just not that interesting to see machines compete (as is also the case with freestyle chess). No audience means no money and no money means no R&D budget. So that's probably why it wouldn'…

I don't know when I think about how the F1 car can drive upside down it almost makes me want to see these awesome 3D tracks where cars do all sorts of death defying racing and tracks that we have seen in science fiction become possible because advance AIs are so much faster.

Maybe people would want to watch it on video or even VR so it seems like they are actually there. Who knows if done right it could be a better experience then looking at 1 piece of a race track for hours.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#55
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Refueling is not allowed in Formula 1, it has only been allowed during two brief stints in the early 1980s and late 1990s. Brief? It was allowed from 1994 to 2009, and the official reason for removing it in 2010 was team expenses (they had to move expensive speed-refueling machinery around the world, and highly trained pit staff to match)

Brief in the sense that for most of the history of F1, refueling has not been allowed.

That's not strictly true. Refuelling was allowed (or, more accurately, it wasn't banned) from 1950 (the first F1 world championship) thru 1983. Fangio did a deliberate pitstop during his famous win at the Nürburgring in 1957 [1].

However, it appears that it wasn't until 1983 that a team (Brabham) deliberately built a car with a tank too small to hold enough fuel to finish a race [2]. Brabham went on to win the 1983 championship and refuelling was banned from 1984.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_German_Grand_Prix [2]: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/refueling.html

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#56
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Refueling is not allowed in Formula 1, it has only been allowed during two brief stints in the early 1980s and late 1990s. Brief? It was allowed from 1994 to 2009, and the official reason for removing it in 2010 was team expenses (they had to move expensive speed-refueling machinery around the world, and highly trained pit staff to match)

Brief in the sense that for most of the history of F1, refueling has not been allowed.

Refueling was only banned in 1984, it was allowed before that.

So using the historical argument, it's the refueling ban whose stint has been brief (1984 - 1993, and 2010 - ?)

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#57
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the thing is, it costs time to replace tires So you have to balance tire wear with the time gained by pushing it to the limit They also have an increased engine life this year, I think each team must go through 5 engines during the season, as opposed to 8 engines And you can bet they're designed to last as much as needed but not much more.

Absolutely. Tire management is important, but it should not be essential. Reckless breaking with wheels locked should have its consequences. I'd rather see wheel to wheel action than listen to the comments about how this guy in a second place will have to save his tires and give up positions to score a few points.

>> "I'd rather see wheel to wheel action than listen to the comments about how this guy in a second place will have to save his tires and give up positions to score a few points."

The only reason he is in 2nd place is because he didn't save his tyres - and the reason he has to now lose places is because the guys behind did. In the end it usually works out the way it should be and we get some fighting on the last few laps. Even 5 years ago the last 15-20 laps were a procession to the line. I think introducing a bit of excitement towards the end is much better.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#58
post #46
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video is an interesting comparison of just how fast F1 cars are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2cNqaPSHv0 IIRC some of those GT cars that look like snails compared to F1 cars are "anything goes". However, here is a truly anything goes car (that has broken the speed barrier on land): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKQ-xj5C2m8 So yeah, an anything goes car will go much faster than an F1 car. But it's going to su…

What I meant was what if an F1 team of designers didn't have to be constrained by any rules and could build their dream F1 car. For example, there was one car a couple of decades ago (I think early 80's maybe?) that used a sort of vaccum effect to keep the car sucked to the ground. It improved cornering speeds greatly, but the device was banned. I googled some and found this: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.…

Here's a BBC documentary about it from 1981: http://youtu.be/xxvcUnmBF8I?t=3m37s called Gentlemen Lift Your Skirts.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#59
post #25

The video mentions that the aerodynamics of the car generates so much down-force that it could ride upside-down on the ceiling. Wow.

While certainly impressive, that's been true of F1 cars for decades.

As you say "decades" I did a cursory search for a video (assuming perhaps at some point during that time someone thought to make one.) I found this interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcPsSI4O2S0

but would certainly like to see an F1 care drive literally upside-down (normal to horizontal) if you have anything like that. I just searched for a second on YouTube.

Re: F1 2014: All aboard the 'power train' - new rules explained

#60
post #52

The interesting bit here is the development of the turbochargers. This is an area that has been slow to change over the years, due to the small amount of turbocharged vehicles available new[1]. Most turbos are used in heavy machinery (garbage trucks, big rigs, etc.), a slowly changing industry. They do not face the same regulations as regular autos. Seems they are doing away with the wastegate and replacing it with a…

> This is an area that has been slow to change over the years, due to the small amount of turbocharged vehicles available new. Most turbos are used in heavy machinery (garbage trucks, big rigs, etc.), a slowly changing industry.

I'm not sure this is true in England - most diesel cars on the road have a turbocharger.

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