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India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

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Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#31

Post by waps »

ashray wrote: post #6
nickff wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has also been given opportunities never available to western countries during their period of industrialization, such as access to a wide variety of medicine and technology. I would just like it to be clear that India is in a different situation than what many others were at comparable levels of development.

Those options are expensive. Why should the rich and powerful give up profit margins for better public health and so that other countries don't get typhoons ? Unfortunately, money is much more powerful than any other motivation. The government helps curb such attitudes but the government listens to the people (atleast in theory..), and the people are indifferent.

Please note that the relationship between typhoons and climate change is unproven. There is some vague idea that higher average temperature provides more energy to storms, but it's at best an idea.

Please note that people aren't indifferent. Without technology and the economy, people in India would starve. I would also suggest that in a less developed economy, people are much more likely to be aware of that.

Industry is not bad, it's what humans alive, in the numbers that we have.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#32

Post by waps »

rodgerd wrote: post #22
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #3

Logically speaking for India to reduce its total emissions one of two things should happen: a huge number of people in India should die or Indians should consume almost nothing (everything else being equal.) I don't understand how anyone can fault India for its current stance given that the state we are in was caused by the developed countries. The only way anyone can fault India is by asserting that an Indian life i…

That's certainly true, but assuming the science is correct on this issue, we're squabbling over who gets which bits said of the houses while they're burning down. With us in them.

I realize you're being metaphorical, but "houses burning down" ? Really ?

We'll have to relocate a few cities, or abandon them. Sure, not pleasant, but nobody will be burning.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#33

Post by waps »

yetanotherphd wrote: post #7

There is something almost colonialist about the way the arguments on the Indian side are never given (although their motives are discussed in depth). Last time I checked, both China and India argued that global emissions limits should be done on a per-capita basis, and that therefore China and India should not be obligated to reduce their emissions. While there are arguments to be made against this claim (e.g. should…

Maybe this is realpolitik, but how about assuming everybody is only driven by base politics.

Or how about anybody who isn't rich enough to have at least savings sufficient for 6 months without any income (which is probably 98% of the planet) is only ever driven by short-term politics.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#34

Post by dcc1 »

tks2103 wrote: post #20
nickff wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has also been given opportunities never available to western countries during their period of industrialization, such as access to a wide variety of medicine and technology. I would just like it to be clear that India is in a different situation than what many others were at comparable levels of development.

India was also colonized. You aren't being unbiased when you point out medicine and technology, but not colonialism.

So was Ireland, were not doing too bad now, thank you

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#35

Post by mahranch »

AxisOfEval wrote: post #10
ashray wrote: post #2

The problem with these talks are that from a developing country's perspective it looks like developed nations used cheap energy to get ahead. Now they want to curb usage of cheap energy in developing nations because: 1. Suddenly, they're affected by climate change, or claim to be. 2. It's just a ploy to increase energy costs for developing nations and keep them behind. This may or may not be true but with this kind o…

Yeah. Bang on. That is how it is. Climb the ladder and then throw it away so that others can't get to where you are. That fact of the matter is that every economy goes through this cycle (of growing up). Child labor, poor health-care, now pollution and soon patents. While not being pertinent to this discussion, the country with the greatest patent lobbying bodies is also the country that committed the greatest IPR vi…

> Climb the ladder and then throw it away so that others can't get to where you are.

Well that's a little disingenuous, no? I know the intellectually lazy like to point out how the west didn't have any restrictions 80-90 years ago during their industrial boom, but you have to keep in mind that 80-90 years ago, they didn't know what a greenhouse gas was. And they certainly couldn't know the long-term impact. We're ALL suffering from those mistakes and ignorance.

The earth is a spaceship and we ride along in it as we travel through our galaxy. It's a spaceship with a finite amount of available resources and a fragile atmosphere. Past ecological abuses are just that, in the past. We need to look forward to the future and protect our spaceship or we all die.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#36

Post by kaybe »

waps wrote: post #31
ashray wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those options are expensive. Why should the rich and powerful give up profit margins for better public health and so that other countries don't get typhoons ? Unfortunately, money is much more powerful than any other motivation. The government helps curb such attitudes but the government listens to the people (atleast in theory..), and the people are indifferent.

Please note that the relationship between typhoons and climate change is unproven. There is some vague idea that higher average temperature provides more energy to storms, but it's at best an idea. Please note that people aren't indifferent. Without technology and the economy, people in India would starve. I would also suggest that in a less developed economy, people are much more likely to be aware of that. Industry…

While it's true that the relationship is unproven (the only way to really prove it is to see it happen), it's not just an idea, it's a result of modelling.

Now, these models are not entirely correct and still lack elements (climate is a very complex system), but it's not as if no thought had been put into the relationship.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#37

Post by adventured »

tks2103 wrote: post #27
nickff wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct that India was colonized by the British, and the Empire extracted wealth from the subcontinent while creating institutions of debatable value; it should also be noted that England was previously within the dominion of Rome, and later France. I was not attempting to fully describe the differing circumstances surrounding industrialization of different states (, as I do not have the knowledge or ability…

Bullshit, dude. You are being a coward. Does Rome or France conquering England have an effect on the way we should manage global emissions policy or not? Because if it doesn't, why are you mentioning it? Do the different circumstances that India has during industrialization mean they should take a greater role in limiting their emissions or not? Because you mentioned just two items, medicine and technology, which are…

I'm pretty confident you could have expressed what you think is wrong with the parent, without being insulting.

"Be civil."

http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#38

Post by s-topper »

Looking at these data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dio...

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=USA+total+primary+energ...

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=USA+vs+India+coal+consu...

USA should make do with one gas-guzzling truck less per person, instead of bullshitting their pseudo-intellectual "green" preaching on India and China.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#39

Post by rrrazdan »

Lets leave aside everything else. One Indian's per capita emission should be exactly equal to one American's per capita emission. Isn't that justice?

The world's per capita emission in 2010 was 3 times that of India. US emits 10 times more than us on a per capita basis. It befuddles me. HN please explain how India is in the wrong here?

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#40

Post by demallien »

halfoot wrote: post #21
demallien wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually India is going to be hard-hit by climate change on several fronts. Firstly, many parts of southern India are low-lying and will be affected by rising sea levels. Then there's the effect that India is in the tropical zone - they've already experienced devastating monsoons and this is only predicted to get worse (see Typhoon Yolanda) as time goes by. Lastly, those glaciers aren't far away, they're right there…

Stop with your preaching already, India has blocked the talks because developed countries have gone back on many of the promises they have agreed to keep including funding, technology transfer and their own commitments to reducing their emissions.

Preaching? Hardly. My first paragraph was all about how India is going to be one if the countries hit the hardest by climate change. Once you understand that, you have to try and come up for an explanation as to why they are acting against their own interest. India needs more developed countries to stop polluting, and I really don't see how throwing a spanner in the works does not seem to me to be a winning strategy for convincing the big polluters to stop. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they have a really cunning plan, but we're talking about a country that got into a nuclear arms race with its neighbour, so I'm thinking that we're not talking about diplomatic geniuses playing a game if geopolitical chess. I would be happy to be wrong, but in the mean time my money is on the Indian government doing stupid things for base political considerations.
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