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How Software Companies Die (1995)

cs.cmu.edu

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Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#61

Post by rmc »

simonh wrote: post #10
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

If we ignore everything ever said by people with nasty beliefs, we'd basically never read anything written more than 100 years ago, and a decent chunk of the stuff written since. Anti-slavery campaigners in to 1800s used to beat their children. Pretty much every writer in antiquity was either a slaver or pederasts by modern standards. Where do you stop? It's worth being aware of so you know to take such things into a…

That's why you should look at their beliefs in the time they said them.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#62

Post by rmc »

nashashmi wrote: post #29
ghshephard wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference here, is that it's not the 1800s, and OSC continues to not just hold, but evangelize his hateful positions. See: http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html for one of the reasons people find him repellent. Choice quote (after he had a chance to reflect on the response to his essay): "...it has become clearer and clearer to me, since writing this essay, that gay activism as a movement is no long…

How is that wrong again?! It is true that they are trying to gain legitimacy. It is no longer about rights but now it is about acceptance. The time has come now to the point where anyone who holds an anti-gay position is criticized and/or boycotted. Now we have not just reached giving gays equal treatment but making changes to accommodate a different lifestyle. The second point OSC makes is sourced in a discomfort fr…

The time has come now to the point where anyone who holds an anti-gay position is criticized and/or boycotted

You say that like it's a bad thing.

It is no longer about rights but now it is about acceptance

(a) There are still lots of rights that many states and organisations do not recognise. (b) There is no difference between rights and acceptance/legitimacy.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#63

Post by rmc »

theorique wrote: post #59
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

Yes, the left never shuts up about it. I deplore his views, and Ender's Game was still a great book. People are complex.

Yes, people who are denied their rights, beaten up and killed tend to get annoyed about it. They have a right to be annoyed.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#64

Post by 127 »

SwellJoe wrote: post #24
barking wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should consider what you just wrote and and what it says about you.

One shouldn't feel obligated to be tolerant of intolerance expressed by people with power and privilege against those who have less power and privilege (like a wealthy, straight, white male attacking LGBTQ folks). That's a very common tactic of bigots to claim that being told they should stop oppressing people is oppressive toward them. Demanding an end to oppression is not oppressive toward those who currently benef…

Yet we should be tolerant of intolerance expressed by people who are not wealthy, straight, white or male?

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#65

Post by purringmeow »

brazzy wrote: post #17

Was this as ridiculous a pastiche of clichés when it was written in 1995 as it is now? Or did programmers really only start to have social lives, dislike permanent crunch mode and plan before coding in the last 20 years? It sounds to me like Card read through the Jargon file, i.e. the self-image of a considerably earlier subculture of programmers, took it at face value, added some hyperbole and wrote it up as a kind…

And giving up "sleep, love and health"? As if I am going to part with my health for whatever salary...

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#66

Post by rmc »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #30
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

Your characterization of OSC is incorrect. He only believes sodomy laws should be used carefully to make sure people don't "shake the confidence of the community", and that most homosexuals should not be jailed. http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html I don't agree with OSC, and I doubt he'd like me very much due to my propensity for casual sex and my desire to abolish state marriage. That said, I do share…

I do share his distaste for the gay rights movement's propensity to attack and attempt to blacklist and attack their opponents.

I have a dislike for the anti-gay rights movement's attempt to kill gay people.

Communism has been far more harmful to the world than opposition to gay marriage.

Spoken like a breeder.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#67

Post by 127 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

This is curiously always stated, but never referred or quoted, even out of context. If you're going to make strong assertions on persons character you better have the ability to back it up. It's not my job to dig up this material.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#68

Post by Killah911 »

brazzy wrote: post #17

Was this as ridiculous a pastiche of clichés when it was written in 1995 as it is now? Or did programmers really only start to have social lives, dislike permanent crunch mode and plan before coding in the last 20 years? It sounds to me like Card read through the Jargon file, i.e. the self-image of a considerably earlier subculture of programmers, took it at face value, added some hyperbole and wrote it up as a kind…

Aaah, the skinny hipster programmer sipping a latte is kind'o new. I recall sitting in a conference room with a bunch of programmers not to long ago and ~80% fit the description of the article. There were dudes sitting down the hallway with whom I chatted over IRC or IM more than I ever did in person. Sure the article may be a bit of a cliche, but that's for a reason.

I agree programmers now are arguably more "social", but then again a lot of the rest of the world now are probably more like what programmers used to be like, glued to a computing device.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#69

Post by yummyfajitas »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #52
nashashmi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that wrong again?! It is true that they are trying to gain legitimacy. It is no longer about rights but now it is about acceptance. The time has come now to the point where anyone who holds an anti-gay position is criticized and/or boycotted. Now we have not just reached giving gays equal treatment but making changes to accommodate a different lifestyle. The second point OSC makes is sourced in a discomfort fr…

> The time has come now to the point where anyone who holds an anti-gay position is criticized and/or boycotted. "The time has come now to the point where anyone who holds an anti-black position is criticized and/or boycotted." "The time has come now to the point where anyone who holds an anti-woman position is criticized and/or boycotted." "The time has come now to the point where anyone who holds an anti-Jew positi…

The time has come now to the point where anyone who holds a pro-Obamacare position is criticized and/or boycotted.

The time has now come to the point where anyone who holds a pro-privacy position is now criticized and/or boycotted.

The time has now come to the point where anyone who holds an anti-polygamy position is now criticized and/or boycotted.

Yes, lets all give up reasoned discourse and simply attack those who disagree with us.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#70

Post by 127 »

ghshephard wrote: post #15
simonh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we ignore everything ever said by people with nasty beliefs, we'd basically never read anything written more than 100 years ago, and a decent chunk of the stuff written since. Anti-slavery campaigners in to 1800s used to beat their children. Pretty much every writer in antiquity was either a slaver or pederasts by modern standards. Where do you stop? It's worth being aware of so you know to take such things into a…

The difference here, is that it's not the 1800s, and OSC continues to not just hold, but evangelize his hateful positions. See: http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html for one of the reasons people find him repellent. Choice quote (after he had a chance to reflect on the response to his essay): "...it has become clearer and clearer to me, since writing this essay, that gay activism as a movement is no long…

This is not a hateful position. It is a political position and a stance of how society should operate. I see no gay hatred there. Simply the strong need for family and society building. Just because you can't understand his reasons and emotionally react to some of his opinions does not a bigot make.
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