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How Software Companies Die (1995)

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Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#41

Post by Udo »

nashashmi wrote: post #32
Udo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody disputes that. The question is, I believe, if we should enable them and elevate them. Giving Card a platform and indulging him validates his entire personal concept, not just the good parts. It's not only a matter of giving credit, it's about choosing where your content comes from. This person is still alive and relevant and subject to social acceptance. And even with dead people, we are reluctant to cite them…

You know if we practiced the same methodology a long time back, many prominent people may never have gained credence even if they came up with some amazing stuff simply because they were gay. Case in point: Alan Turing.

You could argue that "we" always practiced the methodology of penalizing people with beliefs that were perceived as abnormal. Case in point: Alan Turing.

However, this is not the level I want this considered at. Instead, I invite you to look at what you're comparing here. There is OSC's philosophy of hatred on one side, and Alan Turing's sexuality on the other (which was never about harming anyone and hence could always be considered ethically neutral). You can't meaningfully argue that the two are similar. Yes, they share the trait of being socially unaccepted at the time, but that's also where the similarities end.

I'm not proposing we shun people because their beliefs are unpopular. I'm talking about making a choice not to elevate people who are unethical.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#42

Post by ColinWright »

d4nt wrote: post #38
Udo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've been doing these for a while, so: thank you for taking the time! It's just that I get the feeling your "job" should be done automatically by a sidebar or something ;) Seriously an automated element containing "previous discussions about this subject" would be a nice addition to HN.

I get the feeling Colin may have already automated this and it's a bot posting these things.

I did have, but it's been permanently disabled. I got too much grief over it. I have scripts to assist, but all these posts are "by hand". They don't take much time, and occasionally during the search and confirmation phase I stumble across other things that are interesting, so there is some reward.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#43

Post by Udo »

ColinWright wrote: post #42
d4nt wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the feeling Colin may have already automated this and it's a bot posting these things.

I did have, but it's been permanently disabled. I got too much grief over it. I have scripts to assist, but all these posts are "by hand". They don't take much time, and occasionally during the search and confirmation phase I stumble across other things that are interesting, so there is some reward.

I think it makes sense to have that bot as an actual separate site feature. Personally, it's not something I'd want to be mixed in with normal comments.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#44

Post by PhasmaFelis »

barking wrote: post #8
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

You should consider what you just wrote and and what it says about you.

It says that I believe a man who holds violent* and irrational hatred in his heart is unlikely to be a rational thinker, and his words on any subject should be give careful consideration. I stand by that, thank you very much.

*Yes, violent. Card has literally advocated armed revolution against any federal government that legalizes gay marriage.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#45

Post by andyjohnson0 »

ankitml wrote: post #23
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

There is no reason to not listen his views on software, if he has weird views on homos. He is a horrible bigot when it comes to gays. We as logical rationalists should stop labeling someone as 'Insert some hateful word' and ignore everything what he says. This is occurring more and more these days, if we dont like someone's economic views we label him as communist and completely stop hearing him. Few days back someon…

The article isn't about software; its about people who happen to working in the software industry. And the problem with people like Card is that their prejudices are a sign that their understanding of other people, and their capability for basic human empathy, is just fundamentally broken. Hence the lazy, stereotyped description of "coders", "players", etc. in the piece.

I do agree that we shouldn't ignore everything he says because of this. He might still have something useful to say about things that don't involve people. Trees, for example.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#46

Post by chris_wot »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

Wow, way to go. Whilst he may have some beliefs that aren't very popular or even nice, does that mean that what's in the article is bad or wrong?

Perhaps you should focus on his arguments, and not on the man himself. For once, this really is an ad hominem attack!

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#47

Post by lotsofcows »

brazzy wrote: post #17

Was this as ridiculous a pastiche of clichés when it was written in 1995 as it is now? Or did programmers really only start to have social lives, dislike permanent crunch mode and plan before coding in the last 20 years? It sounds to me like Card read through the Jargon file, i.e. the self-image of a considerably earlier subculture of programmers, took it at face value, added some hyperbole and wrote it up as a kind…

Hmmm....

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#48

Post by ankitml »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #45
ankitml wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no reason to not listen his views on software, if he has weird views on homos. He is a horrible bigot when it comes to gays. We as logical rationalists should stop labeling someone as 'Insert some hateful word' and ignore everything what he says. This is occurring more and more these days, if we dont like someone's economic views we label him as communist and completely stop hearing him. Few days back someon…

The article isn't about software; its about people who happen to working in the software industry. And the problem with people like Card is that their prejudices are a sign that their understanding of other people, and their capability for basic human empathy, is just fundamentally broken. Hence the lazy, stereotyped description of "coders", "players", etc. in the piece. I do agree that we shouldn't ignore everything…

He may have better understanding of people who make software. His understanding of gays doesnt have a problem, his perception of gays has. According to his twisted value system they are bad people. However his understanding of software people is not clouded by his values. In any case I am only trying to defend him because I saw people just read his name from article title and decided they should not read it full.

So please go ahead read what he has to say, then decide if he is correct or not instead of judging article beforehand. My 2 cents.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#49

Post by PhasmaFelis »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #30
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

Your characterization of OSC is incorrect. He only believes sodomy laws should be used carefully to make sure people don't "shake the confidence of the community", and that most homosexuals should not be jailed. http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html I don't agree with OSC, and I doubt he'd like me very much due to my propensity for casual sex and my desire to abolish state marriage. That said, I do share…

> Your characterization of OSC is incorrect. He only believes sodomy laws should be used carefully to make sure people don't "shake the confidence of the community", and that most homosexuals should not be jailed.

Ah. Yes. My mistake. He thinks only the uppity gay folks should be thrown in prison in order to properly terrorize the rest, who can remain free as long as they understand how disgusting and shameful they are and don't try to corrupt decent folks.

You really think that's different? You really think that's better?

> I'm curious though - Communism has been far more harmful to the world than opposition to gay marriage. Do you also favor bringing back the anti-communist blacklists of the McCarthy era?

No. Obviously. You're confusing me with the other guy. I reserve the right to approve or disapprove of anyone I please, but I don't advocate systematic and/or governmental oppression of people I disagree with. That's what bigots do, and specifically what Card does.

"Blacklist." For fuck's sake. Card wants me thrown in prison; I want people to be aware of his feelings and make their own decisions; and somehow I'm the oppressor?

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#50

Post by adamnemecek »

Udo wrote: post #41
nashashmi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know if we practiced the same methodology a long time back, many prominent people may never have gained credence even if they came up with some amazing stuff simply because they were gay. Case in point: Alan Turing.

You could argue that "we" always practiced the methodology of penalizing people with beliefs that were perceived as abnormal. Case in point: Alan Turing. However, this is not the level I want this considered at. Instead, I invite you to look at what you're comparing here. There is OSC's philosophy of hatred on one side, and Alan Turing's sexuality on the other (which was never about harming anyone and hence could alw…

You are trying to retrofit current sense of morality onto the sense held by people in the past. What if people during Turing's time actually thought that homosexual behavior was unethical (which I think is not too far from the truth)?
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