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How Software Companies Die (1995)

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Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#21

Post by timje1 »

ColinWright wrote: post #19

In case you'd like to catch up on previous discussions of this, here are some of the previous submissions. The majority of the conversation and comments are on these: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1866486 (netjeff.com) : 45 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552821 (carolyn.org): 23 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5372726 (zoion.com) : 14 comments There are also a few comments on some…

This fellow has a point. This should be marked as [1995] so that all of the old vets can skip over it.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#22

Post by ribs »

ghshephard wrote: post #15
simonh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we ignore everything ever said by people with nasty beliefs, we'd basically never read anything written more than 100 years ago, and a decent chunk of the stuff written since. Anti-slavery campaigners in to 1800s used to beat their children. Pretty much every writer in antiquity was either a slaver or pederasts by modern standards. Where do you stop? It's worth being aware of so you know to take such things into a…

The difference here, is that it's not the 1800s, and OSC continues to not just hold, but evangelize his hateful positions. See: http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html for one of the reasons people find him repellent. Choice quote (after he had a chance to reflect on the response to his essay): "...it has become clearer and clearer to me, since writing this essay, that gay activism as a movement is no long…

It's just a fact that even people with repugnant beliefs about certain classes of people can still make complete sense in other domains.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#23

Post by ankitml »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

There is no reason to not listen his views on software, if he has weird views on homos.

He is a horrible bigot when it comes to gays. We as logical rationalists should stop labeling someone as 'Insert some hateful word' and ignore everything what he says.

This is occurring more and more these days, if we dont like someone's economic views we label him as communist and completely stop hearing him.

Few days back someone mentioned; Zed shaw is too cocky, so whatever he says is shit.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#24

Post by SwellJoe »

barking wrote: post #8
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

You should consider what you just wrote and and what it says about you.

One shouldn't feel obligated to be tolerant of intolerance expressed by people with power and privilege against those who have less power and privilege (like a wealthy, straight, white male attacking LGBTQ folks). That's a very common tactic of bigots to claim that being told they should stop oppressing people is oppressive toward them. Demanding an end to oppression is not oppressive toward those who currently benefit from that oppression.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#25

Post by Crito »

swombat wrote: post #5
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

We do, but that seems like a fairly off-topic comment in this case, since this is an article about software companies... What I also know is he's a pretty terrible writer - Ender's Game is fantastic, but the sequels are progressively worse and worse in a horrifying fashion that boggles the mind until you realise that OSC is someone who has a very, very basic understanding (or lack thereof) of human relationships and…

The reason why people don't pick up on Card's shit writing while reading Enders Game is because in Enders Game he substitutes "actually writing complex characters that develop as the story progresses" with "child characters who merely become less foolish as the story progresses". It is a surprisingly common cop-out, making a character a child is a great way to disguise the fact that they only grow in one dimension.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#26

Post by Jare »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #6

Some context. According to [1], the text is from the March 1995 issue "Windows Sources" magazine [2]. Does Card have any experience of business or software? [1] http://www.netjeff.com/humor/item.cgi?file=DeveloperBees [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Sources

His book Lost Boys contains pretty fair descriptions of the videogame industry and development processes in the 80's, and he did a good amount of videogames writing in the 90's, including Monkey Island, The Dig and the disaster that was Neohunter.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#27

Post by Udo »

ribs wrote: post #22
ghshephard wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference here, is that it's not the 1800s, and OSC continues to not just hold, but evangelize his hateful positions. See: http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html for one of the reasons people find him repellent. Choice quote (after he had a chance to reflect on the response to his essay): "...it has become clearer and clearer to me, since writing this essay, that gay activism as a movement is no long…

It's just a fact that even people with repugnant beliefs about certain classes of people can still make complete sense in other domains.

Nobody disputes that. The question is, I believe, if we should enable them and elevate them. Giving Card a platform and indulging him validates his entire personal concept, not just the good parts. It's not only a matter of giving credit, it's about choosing where your content comes from.

This person is still alive and relevant and subject to social acceptance. And even with dead people, we are reluctant to cite them if they have a bad reputation - it's only that we make certain historical allowances based on the perceived historical distance to us.

Especially in this day and age, it's easy to find alternative authors on pretty much any subject who convey the same ideas without the amoral baggage. Let's recognize them instead.

Do you think this essay contains unique insights? No way. It's here because it's written by Orson Scott Card.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#28

Post by Udo »

ColinWright wrote: post #19

In case you'd like to catch up on previous discussions of this, here are some of the previous submissions. The majority of the conversation and comments are on these: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1866486 (netjeff.com) : 45 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=552821 (carolyn.org): 23 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5372726 (zoion.com) : 14 comments There are also a few comments on some…

You've been doing these for a while, so: thank you for taking the time! It's just that I get the feeling your "job" should be done automatically by a sidebar or something ;)

Seriously an automated element containing "previous discussions about this subject" would be a nice addition to HN.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#29

Post by nashashmi »

ghshephard wrote: post #15
simonh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we ignore everything ever said by people with nasty beliefs, we'd basically never read anything written more than 100 years ago, and a decent chunk of the stuff written since. Anti-slavery campaigners in to 1800s used to beat their children. Pretty much every writer in antiquity was either a slaver or pederasts by modern standards. Where do you stop? It's worth being aware of so you know to take such things into a…

The difference here, is that it's not the 1800s, and OSC continues to not just hold, but evangelize his hateful positions. See: http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html for one of the reasons people find him repellent. Choice quote (after he had a chance to reflect on the response to his essay): "...it has become clearer and clearer to me, since writing this essay, that gay activism as a movement is no long…

How is that wrong again?! It is true that they are trying to gain legitimacy. It is no longer about rights but now it is about acceptance. The time has come now to the point where anyone who holds an anti-gay position is criticized and/or boycotted. Now we have not just reached giving gays equal treatment but making changes to accommodate a different lifestyle.

The second point OSC makes is sourced in a discomfort from social disruption. There is a tendency to blame many current state of affairs on the gay movement.

I think in summary we should all reflect on the amount of insight this guy has and the capabilities of prediction he possesses. Just by simply observing things, he makes some deep accurate predictions that are very remote in the future. The article you linked to seems to be written in 1990.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#30

Post by yummyfajitas »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

Your characterization of OSC is incorrect. He only believes sodomy laws should be used carefully to make sure people don't "shake the confidence of the community", and that most homosexuals should not be jailed.

http://www.nauvoo.com/library/card-hypocrites.html

I don't agree with OSC, and I doubt he'd like me very much due to my propensity for casual sex and my desire to abolish state marriage.

That said, I do share his distaste for the gay rights movement's propensity to attack and attempt to blacklist and attack their opponents. I feel this tendency to eschew rational argument, push intellectually dishonest positions and attack those who disagree is very dangerous. And I won't be subscribing to your blacklist of Card and other folks who don't buy into the modern orthodoxy.

I'm curious though - Communism has been far more harmful to the world than opposition to gay marriage. Do you also favor bringing back the anti-communist blacklists of the McCarthy era?

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