Live data from Hacker News

About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

forums.penny-arcade.com

121–126 of 126 posts

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#121
post #25
post #2

It's almost as if people with no knowledge of the situation didn't know what they were talking about and speculated angrily instead.

... And they got it right . The employee confirmed what was in the job posting and what people had issues with (so many different roles, ridiculous hours, low pay, etc). It's not that hard: Want a programmer? Hire one. Want a web developer? Hire one. Want a system administrator? Hire one. Hire two if you have any type of 24/7 on call requirement (it's not remotely reasonable to expect one individual to be on call 24/…

This is ridiculous. Has no one on HN worked at a small company before? Sometimes there's only enough budget and only enough work for one tech guy. You don't need to hire a DBA if there's only 40 hours of DBA work a year to do. Same thing for networking. But if there's more than 8 hours of DBA or networking work a year then it's probably a good idea to hire someone who has a reasonable amount of familiarity with it and isn't silo'd into dev work so hard they would struggle with shifting gears.

I don't get how people are translating how he worked around 80 hours a week for a very brief period into some sort of hours requirement or expectation for the job. That's not even remotely what he said.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, actually, fuck YOU. Why so angry mate?

I'm angry because for the last four days, it's been all about "the PA job posting". It's not even about "hacker" or "news" anymore. It's just about "hey look at us, we're having our weekly scandal and everyone can write a blog post to jump on the bandwagon and cash some visits". I'm angry because this week, our splendid BBS was just a tech version of US Weekly (or The Sun-Herald if "mate" is any indication of you bei…

I can see where you're coming from, though I don't quite share your anger. Let me explain:

When Snowden did his revelation that was pretty much all we talked about. In fact, pretty much everywhere I go was full of the discussions. BBS, blogs, forums, you name it. We recounted where Snowden was at the time, whether he would escape the U.S., whether he would be granted asylum, and so on. The news was very high profile and (in)directly relating to the people, especially the developer community(the hackers, following your diction).

That's the nature of the high profile event. When something of interest happens you want to talk about it, do you grumble about its lack of diversity of topics? Sure, but the stuff was important and we talked about it.

I'm sure at least half of the so-called hackers, (I would prefer the term developers, but I digress) also either play a game, or more obviously, hired. A lot of us have been burned by bad employers and know at least a friend who's been exploited by such bosses.

PA, in this case, hits the two demographics in the center. They are one of the biggest presence in gaming industry and they showed themselves as an exploitive, abusive boss still pretending to be 'the good guys protecting the small'.

To me PA stands in a very bad books because they had a track record of hypocrisy, misogyny, and more importantly, bullying. This is just another record to be added, but you see why people would want to talk about it, and when they have a place to talk about it, sharing the same interests and same demography, they talk about it.

We are all people, and a BBS doesn't define the topics.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im personally not interested, but PA is something of a cultural zeigiest in the same demographic as most of the people who would meet this skill set. They are a big name in gaming, running PA, PAX(the largest video game expo out there), and the childs play charity. They are considered leading commentators in gaming, being both insightful and involved with gaming for over a decade.

They have zeitgeist in the gaming world, not the software engineering world. They aren't doing anything remotely cutting edge software wise. I don't see why an engineer would think it's such a special place to work, other than just because they like video games, and by extension Penny Arcade.

Now if xkcd needed a dev...

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#124
post #8

This post confirms that the job posting is exactly what it looks like: an exploitative horror-show * He speculates whether the job is worth a "lower salary" (and, given his admitted inexperience in the workforce, he probably has no idea what a market salary looks like) * "The ping-pong table is NOT a benefit" * He's on the "bottom of the goddamn ladder" and "reminded every day" edit: I'm getting a lot of flak for tak…

He fairly specifically says that interpretations such as yours are wrong. He specifically says: * No, the conditions are not awful...I love this company * No one here has been scammed into working as hard as they do, and the implication that we’re all blind fools with low self esteem for being here is honestly insulting. * There won’t be any taking advantage of starry-eyed young twenty-somethings. He explains why he'…

It will be interesting in a few years or months when, considering the publicity, I'm sure we'll hear from whoever get hired for this position.

If the person hired is also satisfied in the position, I suspect that will make no difference to the naysayers.

But it's not that easy for a company to keep employees happy. Many who pay market rates have mostly miserable workers. To me, a genuinely satisfied employee is never an example of a moral or other mistake by a company.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#125
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to be a fairly relativistic, each-to-his-own person, so when things like this come up, I generally nod my head in agreement. I don't think I can do that here, though. You're totally right in that people have different utility functions, but I believe that there are some things that are just objectively bad and unhealthy, and whether or not you think you enjoy them or "like" them, they are still bad for you, an…

I agree that there is a point at which allowing the market to decide on fair compensation breaks down. Hence minimum wage and policies against discrimination, etc. I just don't see how one could possibly make an argument that this is the case here. The job pays enough to live well on, and while it does involve performing tasks typically associated with different roles , I don't see any indication that it involves doi…

I'm not talking about wage-slave conditions here. This isn't something that needs to be protected by a minimum wage or a government entity.

This needs to be protected by applicants valuing their time. I guess I read the current guy's description differently than you did; to me, it seemed his multiple-job job required significantly more time than the norm.

I think I distinguish between forms of non-monetary compensation as being good and bad (or healthy and unhealthy, if you prefer). Again, this is all relative, but I think at least on a base level we can probably find common ground here. Accepting lower pay because a place to work is "cool" falls squarely into the unhealthy pile for me. Perhaps it temporarily raises your happiness level (which is of value!), but it's fleeting, and, well, temporary. Accepting lower pay because you're underqualified and the job will be a bit learning experience for you seems reasonable, as would accepting equity in lieu of pay (e.g. a recently-started company) if you think it might be worth something later to compensate. These sorts of things can have lasting impact on your life and are actually useful.

As I said, I just worry that things like this can inspire other companies to do similar things. Right now it's fairly easy to get a job at a good company if you're a developer with some chops. Demand is high and supply is still not quite meeting that demand. But what happens if that changes? If there's a strong culture of paying people market rates and avoiding my-company-is-cool type compensation in lieu of cash, perhaps people can expect a reasonable wage standard when the market is more competitive. But every company that tries to feed applicants some feel-good bullshit about how it's ok that they pay people less because they're just so cool... well, that jeopardizes that.

Or perhaps I'm just worrying about nothing.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#126
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there is a point at which allowing the market to decide on fair compensation breaks down. Hence minimum wage and policies against discrimination, etc. I just don't see how one could possibly make an argument that this is the case here. The job pays enough to live well on, and while it does involve performing tasks typically associated with different roles , I don't see any indication that it involves doi…

I'm not talking about wage-slave conditions here. This isn't something that needs to be protected by a minimum wage or a government entity. This needs to be protected by applicants valuing their time. I guess I read the current guy's description differently than you did; to me, it seemed his multiple-job job required significantly more time than the norm. I think I distinguish between forms of non-monetary compensati…

> This needs to be protected by applicants valuing their time.

To me, this reads as "This needs to be protected by applicants changing their utility function." Applicants do value their time. Everyone values their time. They just value it differently.

Your claim basically hinges on your belief that some aspects of utility are objective. The essential point of your argument then, as I understand it, is that you want job applicants to correct their utility functions according to that objective evaluation, to help out the rest of us whose utility functions are already 'correct'.

This would actually be pretty cool, but the trouble is that you really are not going to have much luck trying to convince everyone else to agree with your utility estimates, even if they do strike you as objective. I think I would probably agree with many of them, personally, but they cannot be made normative.

At the end of the day I agree that you are probably worrying about nothing. I'm not going to claim that the market does an excellent job of setting salaries. There are a lot of irrational agents at play in that market, and the results are skewed accordingly. That said, I think this particular brand of irrationality is highly unlikely to be a driving force.

Post reply on HN