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About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

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Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#111

Post by nbouscal »

kelnos wrote: post #106
nbouscal wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because you know what is best for all human beings. This line in the post was directed at you: > That’s like saying everyone would be fulfilled by getting married and having 2.5 kids. Not everyone has the same utility function.

I tend to be a fairly relativistic, each-to-his-own person, so when things like this come up, I generally nod my head in agreement. I don't think I can do that here, though. You're totally right in that people have different utility functions, but I believe that there are some things that are just objectively bad and unhealthy, and whether or not you think you enjoy them or "like" them, they are still bad for you, an…

I agree that there is a point at which allowing the market to decide on fair compensation breaks down. Hence minimum wage and policies against discrimination, etc. I just don't see how one could possibly make an argument that this is the case here. The job pays enough to live well on, and while it does involve performing tasks typically associated with different roles, I don't see any indication that it involves doing more than one person's job. His description of the time involved doesn't sound that far off the norm. The main argument seems to be that the position is under-compensated, but I don't see any reason why in this case the market shouldn't be allowed to determine that.

Basically this whole issue seems to be a case where a significant part of the compensation is non-monetary (essentially, working at PA), and people whose utility functions assign that compensation zero value are getting bent out of shape about the fact that there exist people whose utility functions assign that compensation high value. (For the record, I'm in the group who assigns it zero value.)

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#112

Post by niuzeta »

Lewisham wrote: post #20
hapless wrote: post #8

This post confirms that the job posting is exactly what it looks like: an exploitative horror-show * He speculates whether the job is worth a "lower salary" (and, given his admitted inexperience in the workforce, he probably has no idea what a market salary looks like) * "The ping-pong table is NOT a benefit" * He's on the "bottom of the goddamn ladder" and "reminded every day" edit: I'm getting a lot of flak for tak…

Did you actually read the post? The ladder is about the ping pong league they run, and he's joking that it's not a benefit because he's not winning. He decided he preferred to get a lower salary for a job he enjoyed more. He said he can wear four hats because "The reality is that one highly motivated, highly skilled person can handle all of this. You do not need to be constantly working IT, or constantly managing ser…

> The ladder is about the ping pong league they run, and he's joking that it's not a benefit because he's not winning.

I did not get that after re-reading the post. While I thank you for clarifying the point which changed the tone of the post dramatically(bad juxtaposition if you ask me, really), I'd also like to point out allegations of did you read the post are, in general, not constructive ad hominem(that whoever you're replying to is incapable of reading and etc.) and uncalled for.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#113

Post by mephi5t0 »

Erm. "..I wanted to teach but I needed money before that to put aside; and to make money I took a salary cut after Amazon job to work for PA. And then I work sometimes till midnight for weeks because they can hire more people but they won't. And you can't go hike and should be on call, always, forever and ever..." LOL what?

For the company that is supposed to be cool and racks up money from PAX... I don't have words to express my thoughts. It's a huge whirlwind, thoughts quickly appear in my head and move in circles and I can't grab any of them to display here. Just wow!

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#114

Post by SheepSlapper »

Legion wrote: post #107

The initial job post, to me, was very clearly written to scare some people off, in an attempt to reduce the tidal wave of responses down to a mere flood. If that flood of respondents doesn't treat their skills (or their life) as having any value, why should Penny Arcade? This isn't one of those crap IT jobs someone takes out of desperation for work. This is a job that a ton of people are going to be feverishly applyi…

A lot of people commenting seem to think that salary is the only form of compensation in a job, as well. I'd gladly trade a few thousand dollars a year to be excited to go to work, with people I enjoy, instead of working a corporate gig where I'm miserable and working on boring projects.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#115

Post by joshguthrie »

Fuck this.

No, actually, fuck YOU. Everyone out there who is going all white-knight on "Oh no, this is not a good situation yadda yadda, you're being exploited, abused,... You're in such abusive relationship that you don't even see it". The job posting was worded to be terrible just to ensure only the most motivated and willing would apply.

Does this mean PA are looking for a slave? No, there are better ways to get yourselves a slave and a lot of startups are doing it without anyone batting an eyelash. Look around you: unpaid internships, low salaries that don't compute with the living costs in the area, all these talks of "sure, you start with a low salary but you'll get equity and stock-options",... This is the real bullshit happening around us every day.

All of this talk about "he's working in awful conditions" when he's describing his happiness is making me sick. Who gave any of us the Judgement Stick to impose our views on other people? The real abuse Kenneth is getting is from anyone putting words he never said in his mouth. He's doing great stuff for a great company who SUPPORTS him whole-heartedly. Why is this crowd trying to disminish his proudness of being part of a family?

We've broken the boundaries of the "9-to-5" job. We're beginning to see the myth of developers working only from the workplace crumbling in front of our eyes and I'm only expected to be at work during the day because we got a sales team whose job IS 9-to-5. Because in the end it's not about our capacity to seat 40 hours in an office but our capacity and desire to get stuff done. And some of us are burning with it, don't deny them. Yes we don't count our hours but what would be our alternatives? Go home while we're HAVING FUN? And I can't picture a workplace where I would be told "Okay, you did your thing. Go home and continue it tomorrow morning." I stay late because I like it, sometimes for the 1Gbps fiber, sometimes because there's still stuff I want to do. Yes, two people could do my job and we could share the hats. But we could also hire 50 people to share the hats and just produce even less.

Stop hating and go slap the companies who really deserve it, all the one who boast their funding, business model, clients, w/ever... and think you're being "arrogant" when you ask for a decent salary.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#116

Post by EdwardDiego »

joshguthrie wrote: post #115

Fuck this. No, actually, fuck YOU. Everyone out there who is going all white-knight on "Oh no, this is not a good situation yadda yadda, you're being exploited, abused,... You're in such abusive relationship that you don't even see it". The job posting was worded to be terrible just to ensure only the most motivated and willing would apply. Does this mean PA are looking for a slave? No, there are better ways to get y…

> No, actually, fuck YOU.

Why so angry mate?

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#117

Post by lostlogin »

jacobquick wrote: post #98
lostlogin wrote: post #40

Marco has some thoughts on this posting. http://www.marco.org

That isn't his response to the kid's post, it's his response to the original job posting, and it got a lot of points being posted on its own yesterday.

That's what I meant, should have been clearer sorry. I searched on this thread for a link to it. I should have searched the actual site - obviously a Marco post would be there...

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#118

Post by LordHumungous »

lightbritefight wrote: post #75
doktrin wrote: post #59

Nothing about this job seems equitable. There appears to be literally 0 reward for making added sacrifices and taking on the additional duties called for. Financial gain? Nope. World class technological challenges? Still no. Work life balance? Obviously not. Solving meaningful problems? No. Name recognition or industry stepping stone? Maybe, but highly mitigated by the fact that any serious applicant would be qualifi…

Im personally not interested, but PA is something of a cultural zeigiest in the same demographic as most of the people who would meet this skill set. They are a big name in gaming, running PA, PAX(the largest video game expo out there), and the childs play charity. They are considered leading commentators in gaming, being both insightful and involved with gaming for over a decade.

They have zeitgeist in the gaming world, not the software engineering world. They aren't doing anything remotely cutting edge software wise. I don't see why an engineer would think it's such a special place to work, other than just because they like video games, and by extension Penny Arcade.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#119

Post by joshguthrie »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #116
joshguthrie wrote: post #115

Fuck this. No, actually, fuck YOU. Everyone out there who is going all white-knight on "Oh no, this is not a good situation yadda yadda, you're being exploited, abused,... You're in such abusive relationship that you don't even see it". The job posting was worded to be terrible just to ensure only the most motivated and willing would apply. Does this mean PA are looking for a slave? No, there are better ways to get y…

> No, actually, fuck YOU. Why so angry mate?

I'm angry because for the last four days, it's been all about "the PA job posting". It's not even about "hacker" or "news" anymore. It's just about "hey look at us, we're having our weekly scandal and everyone can write a blog post to jump on the bandwagon and cash some visits".

I'm angry because this week, our splendid BBS was just a tech version of US Weekly (or The Sun-Herald if "mate" is any indication of you being Aussie).

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#120

Post by InclinedPlane »

hapless wrote: post #24
Lewisham wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you actually read the post? The ladder is about the ping pong league they run, and he's joking that it's not a benefit because he's not winning. He decided he preferred to get a lower salary for a job he enjoyed more. He said he can wear four hats because "The reality is that one highly motivated, highly skilled person can handle all of this. You do not need to be constantly working IT, or constantly managing ser…

I don't have to read much between the lines to interpret a strangled reference to losing at pingpong as a more literal expression of his status. He posted this on his current employer's public forum, after all.

I know him, you are 100% dead wrong.
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