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A universal income is not such a silly idea

timharford.com

51–60 of 337 posts

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#51

The thing I genuinely don't understand regarding the basic income for all argument is that surely it just moves the goal posts rather than solves the problem at hand? In the current system, you can go stay at home and get income support, which should provide you with the basics i.e. a home, food, electricity etc. If you would like more than this, you can go and get a job and hopefully earn more (have a better lifesty…

> This therefore means there is an incentive to go work.

Yes and no. It's not an incentive to get a 10hr/week part-time job, for example, because you'd lose your benefits and so get paid less overall. Even making the transition can be difficult - most jobs won't pay you until the end of the month, but your benefits will be cut off at the start. How long does it take to save up a month's expenditures while on benefits?

> There is also control, to make sure the money the unemployed person is getting is mostly spent on the basics (such as housing, rather than say drugs). > What's worse is that assuming the people who are unemployed are given the choice on how that money is spent, they may in fact not spend the money sensibly (i.e. on their housing) and end up homeless instead.

Sure. But the evidence is that just giving people money works better on average than requiring them to jump through hoops.

> The problem with suddenly giving everyone a minimum amount of money, is that due to everyone now 'at least' having that amount of money at hand, this becomes the new 'bottom' of the market. If I get a job, I earn money on top of this basic amount, which means I can afford nice things and the person unemployed still can't afford anything.

You can't have it both ways. Either employed people get more money than unemployed, which provides an incentive to go work, or they don't, which doesn't.

It's not like people with more money are going to start consuming twice as much food. The unemployed should be able to afford basic necessities; the employed will find it easier to buy luxuries, which is as it should be.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a genuinely new idea this morning. Paying people for idleness increases idleness, which isn't necessarily good for the recipient. Why not pay them instead for doing things that make their life individually or collectively better? * Pay them for taking and passing college classes. * Pay them for losing weight and getting their BMI to an acceptable level that reduces collective health care costs. * Pay them for g…

But that's exactly the point of universal income. You don't pay them for idleness, you pay them regardless. You just don't pay them enough for their desires, just their needs. All those things you want cost money to verify and adds massive administration costs. Another point of universal income is it's cheap to administrate. If you want to "pay" people for taking college, just subsidize it.

I don't think cost of administration is a big deal. The outcome of the system in people's lives is more important. Otherwise you'll end up creating a system where people sit around in idleness and drink themselves to death on booze. Paying for their needs is a good idea, but what about using the payment to motivate them to make their own life better in other ways?

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a genuinely new idea this morning. Paying people for idleness increases idleness, which isn't necessarily good for the recipient. Why not pay them instead for doing things that make their life individually or collectively better? * Pay them for taking and passing college classes. * Pay them for losing weight and getting their BMI to an acceptable level that reduces collective health care costs. * Pay them for g…

Interesting thought! But then we are back to the huge bureaucratic system that needs to reinforce all those rules. Also, several of those ideas sounds very exploitable.

True, but some of them are easily automated. College credits, safe driving.

I think they were all just examples, so perhaps other examples that could be automated could be substituted.

Beyond that, probably less exploitable than the current welfare system (in America), and with less reward.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#54

The thing I genuinely don't understand regarding the basic income for all argument is that surely it just moves the goal posts rather than solves the problem at hand? In the current system, you can go stay at home and get income support, which should provide you with the basics i.e. a home, food, electricity etc. If you would like more than this, you can go and get a job and hopefully earn more (have a better lifesty…

In the UK there is already a large subsidization of low paid people by higher rate tax payers. Its just that all the money is used to pay for services. The goal posts wouldn't be moved, you are just letting poor people decide for themselves how some of that redistributed income is spent.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#55

Meanwhile, Europe apart from Switzerland is busy building thicker walls around Fortress Europa. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/01/razor-wire-divi... http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/asylum-policy-and...

Good. Immigration contributes to overpopulation, both by importing new people and causing replacement breeding in the emigrant nation.

But there is no overpopulation in Europe in terms of land availability or food supply (Europe's population density is 72 person/sqkm, the last famine was during WWII and not even then widespread). Sure, population density is very high in urban centers but there is still plenty of space in the country side. It just needs more incentives to be settled. So 'importing new people' really isn't a problem.

I cannot find any information on 'Replacement breeding in the emigrant nation' so I really cannot say anything about the validity of this statement. Could you provide a source?

EDIT: Fixed sqm to sqkm. Elaborated second paragraph.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#56
post #33

The thing I genuinely don't understand regarding the basic income for all argument is that surely it just moves the goal posts rather than solves the problem at hand? In the current system, you can go stay at home and get income support, which should provide you with the basics i.e. a home, food, electricity etc. If you would like more than this, you can go and get a job and hopefully earn more (have a better lifesty…

> If you would like more than this, you can go and get a job and hopefully earn more (have a better lifestyle) than staying at home not working. Except this isn't the case, since benefits are usually cut when you starting working. This means that you start work in an insecure job with no necessary increase in quality of life. With a guaranteed income, if you were to get a job, you'd have a guaranteed increase in your…

I agree, for this to work, everyone would have to receive that amount of money. Or at least say, everyone receiving under $100,000 a year in salary. Otherwise, you might feel cheated if you replace your $12,000 free money for a $20,000 job. You'd still have to receive the free money, so you'd then earn $32,000 a year.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Walton family alone has more wealth then the lower 42% rest of the USA. So do I, and so does almost anyone with a positive net worth.

That's 42% combined. They have more wealth than 42% of the rest of the population combined.

120 million people at, say, -$1000 in net worth == big negative number. Anyone with $1 of net worth is wealthier than them.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#58

The thing I genuinely don't understand regarding the basic income for all argument is that surely it just moves the goal posts rather than solves the problem at hand? In the current system, you can go stay at home and get income support, which should provide you with the basics i.e. a home, food, electricity etc. If you would like more than this, you can go and get a job and hopefully earn more (have a better lifesty…

> "In the current system, you can go stay at home and get income support, which should provide you with the basics i.e. a home, food, electricity etc."

That is assuming you know which benefits you are entitled for and how to claim them. Most of those benefits you can't apply retroactively. And you can't have someone else claim them on your behalf (for obvious reasons). There is a lot of useless and intrusive bureaucracy saved when you just pay everyone £X.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#59

The thing I genuinely don't understand regarding the basic income for all argument is that surely it just moves the goal posts rather than solves the problem at hand? In the current system, you can go stay at home and get income support, which should provide you with the basics i.e. a home, food, electricity etc. If you would like more than this, you can go and get a job and hopefully earn more (have a better lifesty…

I think it is not just about moving goalposts. What is different is that it frees you from the worry that you need to eat and have an abode. And the hope is that this comfort will make you engage in work you really want to do , rather then turn you into a couch potato.

The idea is nice, but if it causes widespread increases in costs / consumer goods / rent due to the reasons I mentioned, then the only places you may be able to just stay at home and work may not be the place you want to be.

For example, I live in London and enjoy this city. I would love to be able to stay at home and work on my side projects in hope of making extra money, but given the outcome I believe from this, everyone who was to only accept the basic income amount would no longer be able to afford to live in London and would have to relocate to less desirable places in the country.

Yes, you would now be free to work on your projects from your own home, but you would now not live where you want, with the people you are friends with, in an area which would be full of people who also are only taking the basic wage and probably a pretty horrible place.

The on paper calculations of the affect of this is like a snapshot of some code, before you press run. In the first state it is in, it would be fine, but the economic effects from this over the long term both in social and financial terms would be profound.

Re: A universal income is not such a silly idea

#60
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. Immigration contributes to overpopulation, both by importing new people and causing replacement breeding in the emigrant nation.

But there is no overpopulation in Europe in terms of land availability or food supply (Europe's population density is 72 person/sqkm, the last famine was during WWII and not even then widespread). Sure, population density is very high in urban centers but there is still plenty of space in the country side. It just needs more incentives to be settled. So 'importing new people' really isn't a problem. I cannot find any…

http://www.overpopulation.org/immigration.html

Your first sentence is a logical error, since overpopulation is measured worldwide.

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