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Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

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Re: Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

#61
Seems to me the problem pointed out only exists if you view the transactions without taking their larger context into account.

Take his "100 Widget @ 1BTC each to produce, sell them later at a different value of BTC." scenario, which he characterises as an 80% loss. Now consider where the widget maker would have got his initial 100BTC from, and what he'll do with the BTC he sold the widgets for. Using his numbers, lets say you sold 50lb of butter to get your initial 100BTC. Several months later, when you've sold all your widgets (for the deflated 0.2BTC price) and you've got 20BTC in your wallet, you convert that back into your original resources, and get 100lbs of butter at the new 0.2/lb rate. All of a sudden the exact same scenario now looks like a 100% profit (50lb of butter becomes 100lb) instead of an 80% loss (100BTC becomes 20BTC). Admittedly, hanging on to the original 100BTC would have allowed the widget maker to sit on his hands for a few months and then buy 500lbs of butter, but looking at just the BTC deflation without the outside context makes things look very much worse than they really are. And ultimately, it's butter (or opamps or widgets) that you need to eat/live and that have "real value" in some sense - those 100BTC could just as easily have turned out to be worthless at the end of the widget production run - and the widgets could still have been sold for USD or traded for butter. The guy with a private key to a magic number proclaiming "100 BTC" might have had _nothing_ Not a problem if you can afford the gamble - not such a great idea if you _need_ that butter to feed yoru family.

Re: Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

#62
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am well aware of "Gresham's law" that bad money drives out good. I'm just referring to the idea of deflation in general and the fear mongering that happens around it. I'm not talking about Bitcoin versus USD.

Well then maybe you should point that out in your initial comment. I'm just referring to the idea of deflation in general and the fear mongering that happens around it. You'll have to do a little better to support your claim that deflation can result in economic growth. One data point from a rather unique point in history isn't enough.

> Well then maybe you should point that out in your initial comment.

Okay I will next time!

> You'll have to do a little better to support your claim that deflation can result in economic growth. One data point from a rather unique point in history isn't enough.

This isn't my claim.

My claim is that economic growth comes from increased productive capacity and not from manipulation of the money supply (neither inflationary nor deflationary).

See my simple economic example elsewhere in the thread.

Re: Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

#63
There's deflation, and then there is DEFLATION! Five days ago Litecoins were selling for approximately $7/coin on BTC-e. As I am writing this, the price is over $36/coin. If you had bought $100 of Litecoins last Friday, that purchase may now be worth $514. There is almost nothing that you can spend Litecoins on -- with the exception of buying other cryptocurrencies. It reminds me of the height of the dot com bubble, except several times "worse."

Re: Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

#64
I find many defenses of bitcoin hilarious.

A lot of people are pointing out how great it is that bitcoin increases in value over time. Except there are at least two problems with this. One, few people who say such things have any concept of economic theory. Two, nobody seems to care where that value comes from. Somehow they just think it comes from magic, or somehow it has no cost associated with it.

All in all it's precisely reminiscent of any and every speculative bubble throughout history. The market will always go up! up! up! Where does the increase in valuation come from? How is it possible for it to be sustained? Who cares?! We're gonna be rich!

Yeah, good luck with that.

(Edit: all of which is to say, if you want to fly in the face of conventional economic theory, go ahead, but bring some better arguments to the table than "well, it's just been going up the last few years!")

Re: Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

#65
post #3

A few thoughts: 1) Conversely, why would I want to keep my wealth denominated in a currency that loses 2% value every year? 2) Supposing 90% annual deflation forever, as this article does, is disingenuous. Bitcoin is currently a 5 year old technology, and of course it will have periods of significant volatility. In the long run, bitcoin will stabilize, and deflation will be on the rate of global economic growth, curr…

Author here. First, regarding point 2, I use a period of time in which 90% deflation occurred (from the perspective of bitcoin-holders) and consider what affect that would have on profits in a bitcoin-only economy. I do not assume 90% annual deflation forever, though I do suggest that deflation will continue. If anything I wrote seems to suggest deflation will continue at a rate 90% forever, please point out where an…

The article uses 90% as the sample figure. There is no direct statement that this is the type of deflation that will occur, but it seems unlikely that bitcoin prices will increase 10x every year, which is what it would take to have that level of deflation in the long run.

Using a lower number, like 5%, would have been more reasonable, IMO.

Re: Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

#66
post #56

This is trying fit a deflationary currency into a debt/consumption driven economy. Who says the best way to drive the economy is by taking on debt to consume good and services? I would argue that debt counteracts a lot of the gains set by consumption. The falling wages argument seems irrelevant...what's the difference between wages increasing 2% to keep up with 2% inflation and decreasing wages 2% to keep up with 2%…

Even in a non-debt driven economy debt plays a useful role at a micro level in terms of financing productive investment, not just discretionary consumption. Deflation will increase the real value of debt, making it increasingly difficult to service the debt over time (since your wages would probably be falling), whereas inflation reduces the real value of debt over time.

Re: Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

#67
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currencies are stable (and losing 2% value per year) because governments actively manage the supply of money to keep it stable in the face of very volatile demand (caused by what Keynes called "animal spirits". Since demand will fluctuate Bitcoin will fluctuate wildly for the foreseeable future like the value of gold has done and is doing. Bitcoin will never be a stable, safe place to store wealth for that reason. It…

...fluctuate wildly for the foreseeable future like the value of gold has done and is doing. The value of gold as measured how? Do you mean the price of gold in USD? Isn't that more indicative of the price of USD, and/or the price of cash vs. commodities?

No, since gold has varied far more in value than any inflationary/deflationary measure of USD.

Re: Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

#68
post #61

Seems to me the problem pointed out only exists if you view the transactions without taking their larger context into account. Take his "100 Widget @ 1BTC each to produce, sell them later at a different value of BTC." scenario, which he characterises as an 80% loss. Now consider where the widget maker would have got his initial 100BTC from, and what he'll do with the BTC he sold the widgets for. Using his numbers, le…

You're missing the point entirely. It's about opportunity costs.

If you try to use a deflationary currency for any economic activity then you get bitten by deflation, you end up losing money. The fact that the total revenue you get back is still worth the same (in butter or what-have-you) is irrelevant. You still had to buy equipment, you still had to pay people wages, and so forth in that currency to start with.

But if you had not invested that money to start with you'd be even wealthier.

The major point is that bitcoins or dollars aren't actually worth anything intrinsically. They have no value. Value exists in goods and services. With a deflationary currency people are discouraged from economic activity which produces more goods and services because it causes them to lose money.

Re: Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

#69
post #40
post #3

A few thoughts: 1) Conversely, why would I want to keep my wealth denominated in a currency that loses 2% value every year? 2) Supposing 90% annual deflation forever, as this article does, is disingenuous. Bitcoin is currently a 5 year old technology, and of course it will have periods of significant volatility. In the long run, bitcoin will stabilize, and deflation will be on the rate of global economic growth, curr…

1) Conversely, why would I want to keep my wealth denominated in a currency that loses 2% value every year? Because you have no choice. Currencies are imposed by a ruling power (in our case the government) by force. When you choose your currency is usually in form of asset. But you can not pay your taxes in gold. Consequently you can not live in the USA without USD and in Europe without EUR. 2) Supposing 90% annual d…

> Consequently you can not live in the USA without USD and in Europe without EUR.

The 33 countries of Europe that are not in the euro zone would beg to differ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currencies_of_the_European_Unio... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_de...

Re: Bitcoin Deflation and Economic Activity

#70
post #67
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...fluctuate wildly for the foreseeable future like the value of gold has done and is doing. The value of gold as measured how? Do you mean the price of gold in USD? Isn't that more indicative of the price of USD, and/or the price of cash vs. commodities?

No, since gold has varied far more in value than any inflationary/deflationary measure of USD.

How are you measuring gold's value?
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