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Dear Spike Lee

juanluisgarcia.com

91–100 of 165 posts

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't if you downloaded it without paying, which is why it is illegal. So it's illegal to violate an agreement you didn't enter in? That makes no sense, sugar. Let's test that: to read this post, you must agree to pay me 5BTC. Have you now committed an illegality? I guess not. Also you are undermining your own argument here if you support the OP's original "agreement" but not copyright to music / movies, when he…

> So it's illegal to violate an agreement you didn't enter in? That makes no sense, sugar. Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute. > He states that they had to written, explicit contact. Care to read my post again? I read it, your prior post was very short. See my quote above directly from his blog post; there wasn't any contract.

Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute.

I think it is in substantial dispute. Can you cite a case of someone in the US being successfully prosecuted for downloading? Note that this precludes bittorrent, gnutella, etc situations where downloading means simultaneously uploading.

Outside of the US there are plenty of countries where it has been made explicit in the law that downloading is OK. Some even going so far as to include the uploading portion of torrenting, etc as legal too.

Canada: http://archive.is/W0mdI

Netherlands: http://torrentfreak.com/dutch-parliament-downloading-movies-...

Spain: http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/21/spanish-pirate-site-owners-...

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#92

Seriously, what is it with "Agencies" lately? Who the F--k are these people? I have heard/experienced a dozen similar stories recently. I have a friend who left a huge agency to freelance–only to have another small agency work him to the bone and take advantage of him almost exactly like the story here. YES I ABSOLUTELY GET THAT THE ONUS IS ON THE FREELANCER/SUB TO GET THEIR CONTRACTS IN PLACE ... But, seriously, the…

If HN will excuse my rant... They're parasites and bottom dwellers empowered by the fact that online marketing lowered the entry bar into marketing. During my 5-year experience with them, I quit in one where I worked full-time, worked with several dozen of these 'agencies', my ex works for one, and I am due payment tommorow by one. I'm drawing a line here (not nudged by this letter, I've come to that decision few wee…

Their job is to suck your soul out, give you peanut shells, and kiss asses to their clients.

Correct. And your job as a freelancer is to do the same thing. I feel slightly sorry for this guy, but his failure to get any kind of deal memo or contract in place shows him to be an amateur.

EDIT: I extended my original comment as it was so brief as to be potentially confusing.

As for ripping off his design for the poster - nope. I recognized the visual concept immediately as a fan of Chan Wook Park's original Oldboy of which this is a remake. Here's a publicity still from the film: http://byt.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/0...

So the notion of a man emerging from a packing case in an empty field is part of the scripted action of the film, not Mr Garcia's idea. The image of a woman in the background is also related to a story element (which I'd prefer not to explain lest it spoil the plot) and I'm willing to bet she appears with similar costuming in the film. The fonts, layout and content of the textual elements are wholly different And far more inspired by the publicity materials of the Korean original.

The marketing company should not be employing Mr Garcia's material on their social networking pages. However, it's unsurprising that whoever is in charge of the social media marketing would assume that any and all art assets were the products of a work-for-hire agreement as that is normal practice within the industry. however, this also has to viewed in the light of:

Early in the conversation the agency told me that I could publish the work as my own for the “exposure” so since I knew I was not going to getting paid I put the posters in my portfolio.

This is a grey area. An industry portfolio is generally understood to be for exhibition to other clients. Standard practice for cinematographers, production designers and other keys etc. is to either a) negotiate a release for copyrighted materials to be part of a public demo reel or b) to limit access to the demo reel to potential clients, eg by using password-protected videos on vimeo or sending publicity stills privately through email, samples of recorded dialog (if you're a sound person, as I am). And so on. Again, this is the sort thing that is usually established in a deal memo, and such a normal situation that it's typically boilerplate.

Without such an agreement, any claim by Mr Garcia that the pictures in his portfolio were official key art in any capacity (even unused) verges on being an implicit appropriation of trademarks, publicity rights, and/copyrighted material (to they extent that they employed any elements from production stills etc.), as distinct from mere 'fan art.'

Now, it's bad that Mr Garcia got no contract in place but I really think there is a bit more to this story, because the first thing any producer learns on anything but the most amateur-hour production is to get legal releases for any and all performances or copyrighted material on a work-for-hire basis. contractual relations are the lifeblood of the film business and even small indie productions with budgets of only a few thousand dollars use boiler plate agreements.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have worked in this field for a decade and I've been party or witness to disputes about ownership of work from both sides of the table. I don't find Mr Garcia's version of events entirely persuasive.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#93
post #87

Seriously, what is it with "Agencies" lately? Who the F--k are these people? I have heard/experienced a dozen similar stories recently. I have a friend who left a huge agency to freelance–only to have another small agency work him to the bone and take advantage of him almost exactly like the story here. YES I ABSOLUTELY GET THAT THE ONUS IS ON THE FREELANCER/SUB TO GET THEIR CONTRACTS IN PLACE ... But, seriously, the…

Wrong wrong wrong! Even if you don't want to participate in their way of doing business - there's an _enormous_ amount of very high value skills you can learn from them. "A bunch of salespeople in suits tossing around buzzwords so they can land a job taking advantage of a big company's big budget. Everything is a pitch or a comp or a big lead." That is indeed exactly the difference between most "agencies" and most sm…

No, not really. From my anecdotal experience, which does include many a project exceeding the amounts you cited, it usually goes like this (paraphrased):

Agency's army of spineless sales people [1] spends a lot of time ass licking many people, one of them happens to love his anus tickled in that manner, then he dumps a bag of money to them, they spend 90% of that money pumping ads, and 10% on development of what's supposed to masquerade as a 'marketing campaign'. Anus-tickle-lover still gets a nice spreadsheet at the end of the month ('Yay, profits!') and they all live happily ever after.

Well, not all. In-house developers crook their spine to the will of their masters and get an occassional team-building event paid for, and outsourced developers get eaten alive in the witch's cabin.

[1] It helps if you're a handsome woman. A fact, sir. No citation needed. Desired even.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If HN will excuse my rant... They're parasites and bottom dwellers empowered by the fact that online marketing lowered the entry bar into marketing. During my 5-year experience with them, I quit in one where I worked full-time, worked with several dozen of these 'agencies', my ex works for one, and I am due payment tommorow by one. I'm drawing a line here (not nudged by this letter, I've come to that decision few wee…

Their job is to suck your soul out, give you peanut shells, and kiss asses to their clients. Correct. And your job as a freelancer is to do the same thing. I feel slightly sorry for this guy, but his failure to get any kind of deal memo or contract in place shows him to be an amateur. EDIT: I extended my original comment as it was so brief as to be potentially confusing. As for ripping off his design for the poster -…

Correct. And your job as a freelancer is to do the same thing.

I'm sorry for you feel that way. You can opt-in in making a meaningful and fruitful business relations instead? Shame it's an opt-in, and not opt-out, though. I guess Bible's right on that one.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#95
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong wrong wrong! Even if you don't want to participate in their way of doing business - there's an _enormous_ amount of very high value skills you can learn from them. "A bunch of salespeople in suits tossing around buzzwords so they can land a job taking advantage of a big company's big budget. Everything is a pitch or a comp or a big lead." That is indeed exactly the difference between most "agencies" and most sm…

No, not really. From my anecdotal experience, which does include many a project exceeding the amounts you cited, it usually goes like this (paraphrased): Agency's army of spineless sales people [1] spends a lot of time ass licking many people, one of them happens to love his anus tickled in that manner, then he dumps a bag of money to them, they spend 90% of that money pumping ads, and 10% on development of what's su…

Shhh, nobody was supposed to know landing huge-ass contracts involves sucking dick. On a serious note, I guess bigiain's point was that freelancers that know better usually have no clue about bringing business value to the table.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#96
post #3

This is why you should always have your contracts reviewed by a lawyer. See Mike Monteiro's Fuck You, Pay Me: http://vimeo.com/22053820

So the lawyers can now suck the money out?

Even if he blew most of the money he was making on lawyers, what then?

Now he puts everything he's ever owned into suing the company?

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#97
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's illegal to violate an agreement you didn't enter in? That makes no sense, sugar. Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute. > He states that they had to written, explicit contact. Care to read my post again? I read it, your prior post was very short. See my quote above directly from his blog post; there wasn't any contract.

Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute. I think it is in substantial dispute. Can you cite a case of someone in the US being successfully prosecuted for downloading? Note that this precludes bittorrent, gnutella, etc situations where downloading means simultaneously uploading. Outside of the US there are plenty of countries where it has been made explicit in the law…

> I think it is in substantial dispute. Can you cite a case of someone in the US being successfully prosecuted for downloading? Note that this precludes bittorrent, gnutella, etc situations where downloading means simultaneously uploading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fastlink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Site_Down

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Buccaneer

Note: Just because I don't have any cases offhand of my friends fined for jaywalking, doesn't mean it isn't against the law.

> Outside of the US there are plenty of countries where it has been made explicit in the law that downloading is OK. Some even going so far as to include the uploading portion of torrenting, etc as legal too.

I don't know much about the Dutch law, but it is supplemented by a 'piracy tax', ie, storage devices are more expensive to purchase among other things.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#98
post #68

Are there any reasonable escrow services out there for designers? It seems that a third party with a list of conditions for both sides could hang on to a predetermined amount of money and the digital assets until both parties agree to release. There are perhaps caveats that I've not considered, but this idea comes to me again and again when I hear this kind of story (again). Edit: Guess I also have to throw in here t…

"list of conditions for both sides ... predetermined amount of money" - that is what contract is. If they had it - no need for escrow.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#99
post #26

Where are the internet hippies saying everything should be free?

My question as well. I'd love to hear from the advocates of "It's digital, there is no cost to the content producer for others to make copies."

They are using his work to aid in selling their product. He should get a cut of that. It's not much related to Little Bobby downloading a movie.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't if you downloaded it without paying, which is why it is illegal. So it's illegal to violate an agreement you didn't enter in? That makes no sense, sugar. Let's test that: to read this post, you must agree to pay me 5BTC. Have you now committed an illegality? I guess not. Also you are undermining your own argument here if you support the OP's original "agreement" but not copyright to music / movies, when he…

> So it's illegal to violate an agreement you didn't enter in? That makes no sense, sugar. Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute. > He states that they had to written, explicit contact. Care to read my post again? I read it, your prior post was very short. See my quote above directly from his blog post; there wasn't any contract.

Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute.

Actually, not where I live. But the point is that the situations are different, because I don't have an agreement with any artist. Whether that makes it illegal to use copyright works was not the issue in discussion. What was being discussed was the supposed hypocrisy of anti-copyright people.

there wasn't any contract.

There's was an implied agreement. Whether he has a legal foot to stand on is irrelevant to this discussion, because we weren't talking about the legality of the situation, but what it should be.

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