Live data from Hacker News

Dear Spike Lee

juanluisgarcia.com

81–90 of 165 posts

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#81

Seriously, what is it with "Agencies" lately? Who the F--k are these people? I have heard/experienced a dozen similar stories recently. I have a friend who left a huge agency to freelance–only to have another small agency work him to the bone and take advantage of him almost exactly like the story here. YES I ABSOLUTELY GET THAT THE ONUS IS ON THE FREELANCER/SUB TO GET THEIR CONTRACTS IN PLACE ... But, seriously, the…

> My advice to all freelance hackers and designers: if you meet someone who says they work at an agency, (a) tell them you're a janitor and (b) run away.

c) Tell them you don't do spec work, because you're not a moron - fuck you pay me.

Agency finds naive freelancer, offers a job for exposure & other bullshit, overwhelms with fixes/updates, pretends being dissatisfied/offended, refuses to pay. This kind of story is as old as freelancing itself, only the names of parties involved change.

PSA for inexperienced freelancers: Nobody will unclog your crapper for a promise of future gigs, designers and programmers shouldn't put up with such scams either. Too many of us gained this wisdom the hard way.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You agreed to it when you paid in order to watch it. So yes, you didn't. But if you don't agree, you shouldn't watch it. It's a simple deal, regardless of whether or not technology means you could . Otherwise you can turn it around and ask "when did the artist agree to you watching it without paying" which is pretty similar to the case described here, just replace watching with using.

But if you don't agree, you shouldn't watch it. Why? when did the artist agree to you watching it without paying If I own a car made by Toyota, should I need their agreement to offer rides to people?

If it would be possible to keep driving the Toyota while lending it to three different friends at the same time - I'm sure Toyota would have a problem with that.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#83
It's actually good that you didn't have a contract. If you did, you would probably be sworn to secrecy and not be able to share this story. Sure, with a contract you could take them to court, but you can do that anyway if someone stole your work.

I did work through an agency for a San Francisco interior designer. The agency's Founder paid me with multiple bad checks. Meanwhile, two years later, my work continues to be used and I remain unpaid for a month of full time work.

I ended up launching a site exposing the guy behind the agency who has a history of writing bad checks. I've received many emails from others he scammed or tried to scam so I find some peace in the fact that when people google his name, a site exposing the guy come up.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#84
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did I agree to that?

Who do you think you're kidding? You obviously know about the obligation to pay; you've just decided that if the product you want access to has been laundered through at least one 3rd party, you've never had to look any of the producers in the eye, and therefore you have no obligation to them. If anything, you're even worse than the person who originally published the content you're taking: they're at least accountab…

I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just enjoy arguing.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#85

Seriously, what is it with "Agencies" lately? Who the F--k are these people? I have heard/experienced a dozen similar stories recently. I have a friend who left a huge agency to freelance–only to have another small agency work him to the bone and take advantage of him almost exactly like the story here. YES I ABSOLUTELY GET THAT THE ONUS IS ON THE FREELANCER/SUB TO GET THEIR CONTRACTS IN PLACE ... But, seriously, the…

If HN will excuse my rant...

They're parasites and bottom dwellers empowered by the fact that online marketing lowered the entry bar into marketing.

During my 5-year experience with them, I quit in one where I worked full-time, worked with several dozen of these 'agencies', my ex works for one, and I am due payment tommorow by one. I'm drawing a line here (not nudged by this letter, I've come to that decision few weeks back) - I'll never work with them again.

Their job is to suck your soul out, give you peanut shells, and kiss asses to their clients. They're never satisfied with the results, they won't pay the market rate, they abuse their employees. At first agency, I worked 120h a week, for several months, on several ocassions. Ended up in ER twice, lost an organ (gallbladder) and seriously damaged another (chronic gastritis) in short period of time, had micronap hallucinations regulary. Yes, I should've known better. Youthful energy got the best of me. It got best out of all their other employees, almost all who have left "violently". I was 27 at that point.

On a more lighter note - old school marketeers with vision, concept and drive now get even more respect from me. I didn't appreciate them enough when I started, thinking that they're not doing enough "numbers". Tough times for them and it's a shame. They'll be back on horse soon enough, I hope. There ought to be data-sucking ad-providing backlash at one point, right? Tell me it is so.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you don't agree, you shouldn't watch it. Why? when did the artist agree to you watching it without paying If I own a car made by Toyota, should I need their agreement to offer rides to people?

> Why? It's against the law. > If I own a car made by Toyota, should I need their agreement to offer rides to people? This argument makes no sense. You can play the music you bought for other people for free, just like giving a free car ride. You did in fact pay for the Toyota, just like you would to purchase an album.

It's against the law.

The courts in my jurisdiction disagree, but in any case, I wasn't making a legal argument, but an ethical one. Unless of course you consider that any illegal activity is necessarily unethical, in which case we have nothing to discuss.

You can play the music you bought for other people for free

Not freely, I can't, only under the very restrictive limits of fair use. But I grant you the analogy isn't good. In any case, the point stands: why should I get to decide who can do what with the works (in my case, software) I produce, after I sell them?

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#87

Seriously, what is it with "Agencies" lately? Who the F--k are these people? I have heard/experienced a dozen similar stories recently. I have a friend who left a huge agency to freelance–only to have another small agency work him to the bone and take advantage of him almost exactly like the story here. YES I ABSOLUTELY GET THAT THE ONUS IS ON THE FREELANCER/SUB TO GET THEIR CONTRACTS IN PLACE ... But, seriously, the…

Wrong wrong wrong! Even if you don't want to participate in their way of doing business - there's an _enormous_ amount of very high value skills you can learn from them.

"A bunch of salespeople in suits tossing around buzzwords so they can land a job taking advantage of a big company's big budget. Everything is a pitch or a comp or a big lead."

That is indeed exactly the difference between most "agencies" and most small design firms/freelancers.

The agency has salespeople who know how to value and sell the work a freelancer can do, for an order of magnitude or so more money that that freelance will negotiate for themselves. You might think "I could give that company what they want in a few days with WordPress, a great theme I'm already very familiar with, and a solid day's worth of graphic design and css futzing - I'd do it for a friend for a few grand, but they're a big company so I'll see if I can get away with charging them $8 or $10 grand…". And you'd quite likely lose the job to the agency who comes in talking about Business Goals and Website Goals, Audience Demographics, Conversions, SMART metrics, Information Architecture, User Interface and User Experience design, Content Inventories, Conversion focused and SEO focused copywriting, Social Media integration, broader alignment with current marketing activity, leveraging existing business relationships and co-branding key messages - they'll spend two weeks (billing by the hour) talking to key stakeholders and decision makers at the client (while dressed, as you point out, in smart suits), then submit a proposal for a $280,000 project and, in case the budget doesn't stretch that far, a simpler $150,000 version. And they'll also have the known-effective "sales closer" tactics, probably something like "we've got a few slots open in out pipeline next quarter, I'm pretty sure if we could get this approved and signed before the end of the month I could talk finance into a 12% discount on a full upfront payment…"

The _good_ agencies will actually deliver a lot more business value that a freelancer with a good design eye, a folderful of WordPress themes, and a GoDaddy hosting reseller account.

A _bad_ agency will just have search/replaced the company name in their previous pitch powerpoint decks and web project proposal docs - and deliver a not-very-varefully-planned canned-theme WordPress site anyway, probably farmed out for $8k to some freelancer with the promise of heaps of future work and some great exposure…

Knowing which clients are going to get $100k+ value out of a project, then pitching a proposal based on value delivered, rather than hours worked. _That's_ what a successful agency does. (And what most freelancers have very little idea how to do.)

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#88

Seems weird he mentioned Spike Lee (who did nothing wrong, as far as I can tell) so many times, but didn't name the agency. Seems to hurt the wrong party's reputation. Additionally, he has no apparent way to contact him. EDIT: I really don't want to point fingers with 0 proof, but Spike Lee happens to be CEO of an ad agency named Spike DDB. https://twitter.com/SpikeDDB

It's actually smart. You are more likely to get press traction and a response crucifying an individual than a faceless company. Also, everyone is responsible here, "having people who handle it" is all too often an easy way to free everyone from responsibility.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you don't agree, you shouldn't watch it. Why? when did the artist agree to you watching it without paying If I own a car made by Toyota, should I need their agreement to offer rides to people?

I have a hard time seeing the argument that it should be unilateral. An agreement should be between multiple parties, so if you don't agree to what they're offering, you shouldn't take it. Otherwise it devolves into "I will take it because I can ." Why does that make any more sense for instantly-reproducible, yet still not instantly-creatable, goods than for physical ones? If you want to take it, you probably see som…

Otherwise it devolves into "I will take it because I can."

A free society implies that should be the default, with well justified exceptions. I don't see decent justifications for copyright.

Why does that make any more sense for instantly-reproducible, yet still not instantly-creatable, goods than for physical ones?

The fact that the latter are scarce and rivalrous. Private property is a mechanism to prevent/reduce conflicts. But I'm not opposed to suggestions for alternative mechanisms either.

Re: Dear Spike Lee

#90
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you don't agree, you shouldn't watch it. Why? when did the artist agree to you watching it without paying If I own a car made by Toyota, should I need their agreement to offer rides to people?

If it would be possible to keep driving the Toyota while lending it to three different friends at the same time - I'm sure Toyota would have a problem with that.

And fundies have a problem that I can watch porn. The question is, why should I care about their, Toyota's or copyright holders' problems? As a software developer, I ask as a copyright holder myself.
Post reply on HN