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On Asm.js

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Re: On Asm.js

#111

Post by agibsonccc »

captainmuon wrote: post #51

Imagine there would be a language that would compile to proper bytecode (not JS), that would run on a standardized platform which is present on almost every computer, that is mature, sandboxed, and actually pretty fast. Oh, wait, that already exists and is called Java. Java has gotten a bad rep lately due to some high-profile drive-by-malware bugs. But if the java codebase would have gotten the same intensive care th…

Let java die in the browser. I'm an advocate for java as a backend language. It's one of the most mature runtimes and for speed and what is great as a server language that doesn't require manual memory management. Hadoop and co is built on top of the JVM for a reason. It's even great as an ecosystem for scala, clojure and all that, but the java GUI tools (swing and I'd even argue fx) are horrible to code with. I won't comment on android as it's a separate beast in that arena.

Java in the browser is an abomination though. As a client side language...forget it. I love it as a server runtime though.

Re: On Asm.js

#112

Post by azakai »

jude- wrote: post #93
safetydank wrote: post #12

I feel like PNaCl is the technically superior approach - define a stable set of LLVM bytecode and build an interface to run it in the browser. But the uptake is a problem, no other browser maker wants to adopt a big chunk of code controlled by Google, tailored to run optimally in Chrome. So asm.js took a beeline - leveraging existing Javascript machinery for security/JIT and shoehorning a way to run executable LLVM o…

The other big advantage of PNaCl is that you have the option of distributing it as a signed application that the user downloads once. This is critical for doing in-browser encryption or manipulating sensitive data. You need there to be a trusted runtime that makes this possible, but this can't be done in pure Javascript (where it's too easy to insert malicious code that leaks your keys). It's not enough to simply use…

> PNaCl code is compiled in such a way that the browser can do just-in-time static analysis to verify that the code cannot escape the runtime.

You can (and people do) similar things to sandbox JS, by running it in an iframe or a web worker, for example, plus some static analysis.

Also, the structure of asm.js ensures that the code inside it cannot access outside except through a small number of statically analyzable entry points. You can likewise verify no one modifies the asm.js data array by putting the entire codebase in a closure, and doing a trivial static analysis to see that it is not used.

Re: On Asm.js

#113

Post by ris »

jude- wrote: post #93
safetydank wrote: post #12

I feel like PNaCl is the technically superior approach - define a stable set of LLVM bytecode and build an interface to run it in the browser. But the uptake is a problem, no other browser maker wants to adopt a big chunk of code controlled by Google, tailored to run optimally in Chrome. So asm.js took a beeline - leveraging existing Javascript machinery for security/JIT and shoehorning a way to run executable LLVM o…

The other big advantage of PNaCl is that you have the option of distributing it as a signed application that the user downloads once. This is critical for doing in-browser encryption or manipulating sensitive data. You need there to be a trusted runtime that makes this possible, but this can't be done in pure Javascript (where it's too easy to insert malicious code that leaks your keys). It's not enough to simply use…

So your argument in favour of PNaCl is a completely incidental feature of it that could be (probably quite easily) added to regular javascript and is really just a workaround for the fact that the PKI trust model for SSL is totally broken?

That's a pretty odd way to end up lumped with a technology.

Re: On Asm.js

#114

Post by macspoofing »

>It means JavaScript has nothing to do with it, it's just the poison we ended up with, the bitter pill we supposedly have to swallow.

Yeah. That's right. If we could remake the web from the ground up, and had 100% buy-in from all the major parties (corps and devs) to implement and use the new common standard, JavaScript would not be the central language. But we can't. So welcome to reality.

Re: On Asm.js

#115

Post by derefr »

captainmuon wrote: post #51

Imagine there would be a language that would compile to proper bytecode (not JS), that would run on a standardized platform which is present on almost every computer, that is mature, sandboxed, and actually pretty fast. Oh, wait, that already exists and is called Java. Java has gotten a bad rep lately due to some high-profile drive-by-malware bugs. But if the java codebase would have gotten the same intensive care th…

Instead of the JVM-as-moral-equivalent-to-an-embedded-iframe architecture we ended up with, we certainly could have had . Or , for that matter, with a JVM "engine" sitting sibling to the position Javascript "engines" have in the browser, in terms of access to the DOM and sandboxing provided by the browser-as-platform. That would have made JVM bytecode a wonderful target.

Re: On Asm.js

#116

Post by acqq »

Ygg2 wrote: post #96
acqq wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the writer of the native compilers, I read the article as written from the kind of the developer who always developed in interpretative languages, who sees asm.js as "wrong" because "it's not the JavaScript he would write by hand. And again. as the writer of the native compilers, I'm absolutely pro asm.js. I believe it's the best direction that JavaScript optimization can take, solving more hard problems elegantly…

Interesting. Why do you consider that asm.js is a better representation than most bytecodes? Don't get me wrong JS is awesome (and so is asm.js) but I think stuff like static typing and multi-threadedness are JavaScripts Achilles heel.

We've already tried native and bytecodes: ActiveX, Java, NaCl, Silverlight.

Re: On Asm.js

#117

Post by macspoofing »

fidotron wrote: post #26

This discussion is missing the simple point that the web is rapidly gaining all the flaws that Flash used to have, without the nice (for some) editing environment. The web really isn't suited for app development at all, as the native mobile markets have demonstrated, while the viability of it as a document delivery platform diminishes every time the content gets hidden behind a massive layer of scripts.

>The web really isn't suited for app development at all, as the native mobile markets have demonstrated

It may not be suited for app development, but people want to run applications in their browser. I'd rather use gmail than outlook, google docs than microsoft office. If I can have photoshop in the browser, I'd rather use it there than install it separately.

This is the new reality. Deal with it. HTML is no longer just a document markup language.

Re: On Asm.js

#118

Post by macspoofing »

pwang wrote: post #25

It's very simple - there is no magic here. asm.js is just a "pidgin instruction set architecture", to allow communication between an emerging set of VMs - the browser runtimes - and a compiler backend. (The front-ends are the LLVM front-ends.) The article is exactly right in saying that it's a way to route around JS. Javascript fanboys should not be praising asm.js, because it's a way to route around them. (Which is…

>Javascript fanboys should not be praising asm.js, because it's a way to route around them.

Depends on what kind of JavaScript fanboy you are. If you love the language and want applications to be written, from the ground up, in JS, asm.js is not your friend. If you want to build applications that run on pretty much every platform + kitchen sink, this is for you.

Re: On Asm.js

#119

Post by _random_ »

m0a0t0 wrote: post #108
soapdog wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pwang, there are some people who actually enjoy coding in JS, believe me I am one of them. One cool thing about JS is that you have runtimes for it in computers, tablets, phones, TVs and most current videogames so you can experiment and build stuff for a variety of hardware that no other language can reach as easily (of course you can reach anything with C but it is not easier). Remember all that could be done in JS…

I (not pwang) think it's an abortion of a language because the syntax, scoping and the language as are a whole is a pain to use. Sure, it runs on pretty much everything but that doesn't mean it's suddenly enjoyable to use. The only outstanding feature of JS is that it runs on lots of stuff but it need not be the only one. As you say getting other languages to run is a good thing because those who don't like JS don't…

Some people actually enjoy pain...

Re: On Asm.js

#120

Post by binarycrusader »

franole wrote: post #102
franole wrote: post #5

Windowx XP give me the blue screen of death, with Firefox 25.0.1

My first comment and I get down votes :( Please don't get me wrong, I was just looking for confirmation of the same error. I love Firefox. Even I never switch to Chrome for common office work. I know microsoft will stop supporting XP, but hopefully Mozlla don't [1]. Unfortunately, in some third world companies (like where I work), IT guys prefer not to change what works until it is absolutely necessary. Sorry for my…

After Microsoft stops providing security updates, it will no longer effectively work.

You really, really need to upgrade somehow.

It really is necessary.

If you can't upgrade Windows, you need to consider moving to a different operating system.

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