Live data from Hacker News

Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

reason.com

51–60 of 271 posts

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

Once people reach a livable income, do they totally stop learning, inventing, or creating? I know I don't, and I know other people I see with financial security don't just "stop" either. Because of that, I believe it's at least worth a try.

No, of course not. But the idea that minimum income would cause everyone to just quit their jobs is predicated on the presumption that the poor are morally inferior. Thus, analogies to what middle and upper class people do once they reach a certain level of income are irrelevant, because those people are not morally inferior. You might see a middle class person leave his comfortable line engineer job to get an MBA or PhD to increase his earning power, but that's a mark of the moral virtue of the middle class. A poor person given any sort of income security would just sit on his ass and eat mcdonalds all day. Or so they say.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

> to get an education to seek greater opportunities? That, "make mo money", is the poorest and most cynical incentive to "get an education". Education is it's own reward. Not everyone desires/benefits from going into debt for a piece of paper. People should be free (by having basic income) to choose their own education (or not at all). And not be forced into becoming fuel for the economic machine.

But by providing them a minimum income, you basically make them into fuel for the economic machine - a consumer with no viable skills. And the vital years for gaining these skills are full of distractions, made all the easier to acquire by a basic income.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#53

How would minimum basic income free us from a welfare state? What happens when your $50,000 in medical bills is greater than your $27,000 in annual income (or whatever it happens to be), and you elected not to purchase insurance with your money? Serious question, not meant at a dig against this proposal, because I am genuinely curious as to how it would be handled.

obvious answer: universal healthcare.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#54
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

All systems end up having waste. Would you deny the millions it would help because maybe 50,000 people use their extra money on drugs, $2000 hand bags, and $500 designer belts?

[deleted]

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#55
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one real world example we have, of Dauphin, suggests this is not the case at all. A final report was never issued, but Dr. Evelyn Forget conducted an analysis of the program in 2009 which was published in 2011. She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less becaus…

The study is interesting, but it was performed in Canada in the 1970s. I would be interested in seeing it performed now in the various 'target markets', with so many more distractions available, especially ones targeted at the teenager who just reached working age (i.e., video games). I really believe we would see different results. EDIT: I play a few video games, hence why I know how distracting they are. Speaking o…

"Distractions" have existed forever. Comic books, baseball cards, marbles, pogs, etc. have always been around for teenagers to blow their money on and spend way too much time with. Saying that the existence of video games has fundamentally changed the economy as a whole seems wrong.

Moreover, if that were the case, we would have already seen it. A mincome wouldn't change that. Yet, right now, teens are one of the most under-employed demographics (as in there are more looking for jobs now than in the past), at least in the US. If they were all distracted by video games, we would have seen fewer looking for work.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#56
Do the "welfare state" programs include Medicare and Medicaid? Otherwise $3 trillion spend ($10,000 x 30,000,000 people) is pretty close to US budget expenditures today, but that figure includes all healthcare, defense and bond interest payments.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/08/federal-spe...

It's probably an affordable program at $1,000 a year, but at that level, is it going to make a difference?

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#57
post #53

How would minimum basic income free us from a welfare state? What happens when your $50,000 in medical bills is greater than your $27,000 in annual income (or whatever it happens to be), and you elected not to purchase insurance with your money? Serious question, not meant at a dig against this proposal, because I am genuinely curious as to how it would be handled.

obvious answer: universal healthcare.

That implies that they're not talking about scrapping the welfare state. That's fine, but it implies that they are not speaking plainly, and it also eliminates the basis for my question.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#58

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

This statement says much about you and very little about unemployment.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#59

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

The reason that point of view is unpopular is because you don't appear to have taken into account the ever-increasing automation of our work, making it very difficult to earn a living without having a high level of education - something which many people are just not well-suited for. Not everyone can be an engineer, and those other people are supposed to do what with their lives?

If we don't provide for them, they will find other ways of providing for themselves. Robbery, burglary, blackmail, whatever they can find. Personally I would rather make sure that people in that situation be freed from material concerns. Most people want to do something with their lives, and this will give them the time that is needed to do something creative rather than wasting their lives trying to earn enough to eat on a minimum wage job at McDonald's.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#60
As a European we are bit further down that path than the US.

I assume most of the readers here are "wealthy", would not need basic guaranteed income. So let me explain why this is a good idea from a rich man's perspective.

You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep.

That's it.

Behind all the nice language this is what it boils down to. It is paying off poor people to stop pestering you. Chump change for security. Europe learned it the hard way through numerous revolutions and war - keep the lower classes happy and everyone benefits. Social housing, healthcare, the lower rungs of Maslow's pyramid.

The Romans called it panem et circenses. Not a new idea. Focus on the panem. Hungry people do desperate things.

Want to see how society looks like that does not get that? Brazil. Mexico. Have a nice house in Sao Paulo or Mexico City? Then enjoy your 3m high wall with barbed wire around it.

Sharing a bit of wealth means personal security for you. You don't get robbed. You don't get infected by shit because no one gets shots (yes, you want basic healthcare for all). You have a nice large market to sell shit to, so job security (the basic Henry Ford insight).

So there you have it, even if you hate poor people there is good reason to give them some money.

Post reply on HN