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Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

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Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#41

Post by drcube »

tghw wrote: post #18
peterdundi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

Because the alternative is telling people how to spend it, which will be a less efficient use of that money. We already see this with food stamps and housing vouchers. There are many cases where someone has food stamps, but doesn't have trouble buying food, and so has left over food stamps at the end of the month. Yet they can't afford housing, because you can't pay rent with food stamps.

When I was a kid, my mom's poor friends would buy us groceries with their surplus food stamps, and my mom would pay them back in cash so they could actually pay their bills.

Does anybody know if this is still possible/prevalent these days with EBT/Link cards?

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#42

Post by consonants »

peterdundi wrote: post #9

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

Nice first troll, but we troll about 2 irony-levels deeper around here. Establish a persona and then slowly interject believable bait for maximum care responses.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#43

Post by nanidin »

cobrausn wrote: post #11
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

Ideally the income level is below "Owns 42" flatscreen, can go to anything more expensive than McDonald's, owns latest xbox, owns other luxury goods" such that people are no longer living in poverty, but still have motivation to excel beyond their current situation.

Unfortunately, if you hand someone with poor money management skills a bunch of cash, they may end up with all of those luxury items & no food on the table.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#44

Post by cobrausn »

tghw wrote: post #33
cobrausn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

The one real world example we have, of Dauphin, suggests this is not the case at all. A final report was never issued, but Dr. Evelyn Forget conducted an analysis of the program in 2009 which was published in 2011. She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less becaus…

The study is interesting, but it was performed in Canada in the 1970s. I would be interested in seeing it performed now in the various 'target markets', with so many more distractions available, especially ones targeted at the teenager who just reached working age (i.e., video games). I really believe we would see different results.

EDIT: I play a few video games, hence why I know how distracting they are. Speaking of distractions, I should get back to work...

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#45

Post by tghw »

peterdundi wrote: post #9

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

You probably had a pretty good upbringing, right? I don't mean private schools and butlers. I mean school and parents that could provide a roof over your head and enough food to sustain you.

Not everyone has that upbringing. Not having that upbringing is strongly correlated with living a life of poverty.

In our system, some people start out with a significant disadvantage. Was it their fault? Of course not, they were born there. So why should they be punished because of which parents they had?

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#47

Post by njharman »

cobrausn wrote: post #11
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

> to get an education to seek greater opportunities?

That, "make mo money", is the poorest and most cynical incentive to "get an education". Education is it's own reward. Not everyone desires/benefits from going into debt for a piece of paper.

People should be free (by having basic income) to choose their own education (or not at all). And not be forced into becoming fuel for the economic machine.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#48

Post by drcube »

kristiandupont wrote: post #34
drcube wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you gave it to them. Don't give them money if you don't want them to have it. Since you voted for a government that distributes welfare from your taxes, the most efficient, effective and humane method of distributing that welfare is to hand out cash with no strings attached. Any additional administration is simply a waste of money, with worse outcomes.

>Don't give them money if you don't want them to have it. So you want to make the system optional? If so, how would it be different from somebody simply setting up a charity? Your second statement is pretty bold. I am not necessarily disagreeing but nobody knows what the effects of a system like that would be because we've never tried it.

Yes, we did. Poor laborers often used to get paid in company scrip. You could buy anything you wanted with your paycheck, as long as your boss approved and it was stocked at your company store.

Then we started making employers pay people in no-strings-attached cash, and things got a lot better for everyone. Command economies aren't just terrible for nations, but for much smaller economic domains as well. Like company towns, or welfare systems.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#49

Post by jusben1369 »

carbocation wrote: post #39

How would minimum basic income free us from a welfare state? What happens when your $50,000 in medical bills is greater than your $27,000 in annual income (or whatever it happens to be), and you elected not to purchase insurance with your money? Serious question, not meant at a dig against this proposal, because I am genuinely curious as to how it would be handled.

I think they highlighted in there that $3000 of the $10,000 must be spent on healthcare coverage. Sounds like they're deliberately setting out to remove the chance to let people have a healthcare cost sink them.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#50

Post by cobrausn »

nanidin wrote: post #43
cobrausn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

Ideally the income level is below "Owns 42" flatscreen, can go to anything more expensive than McDonald's, owns latest xbox, owns other luxury goods" such that people are no longer living in poverty, but still have motivation to excel beyond their current situation. Unfortunately, if you hand someone with poor money management skills a bunch of cash, they may end up with all of those luxury items & no food on the tab…

Considering how cheap consumer electronics and entertainment are these days, I'm genuinely concerned that this 'minimum income' would be high enough to permit many to live in perpetual 'childhood' - cheap food, cheap entertainment.
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