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I Hope My Father Dies Soon

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Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#211

Post by waps »

gohrt wrote: post #161
spindritf wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The religion is notably fascinated with martyrdom Martyrdom and suicide are nothing alike. To a Christian at least. About the same time I read a solemn flippancy by some free thinker: he said that a suicide was only the same as a martyr. The open fallacy of this helped to clear the question. Obviously a suicide is the opposite of a martyr. A martyr is a man who cares so much for something outside him, that he forge…

Right. Auto-euthanasia is martyrdom to let the living (family/friends/community) start living their lives again instead of waiting for the ill to die.

This is one concern that can't reasonably be considered. A person should first and foremost be in control of their own life.

Only when that is absolutely impossible for an prolonged indeterminite time (ie. not for an hour, not when he's drunk off his/her ass for a week, not even if for some reason someone would be unconscious for a year), then we can talk about letting someone else decide.

What the family or community or friends think of the matter, they can get fucked. They're only asked to provide an answer to the question of whether that person would have chosen suicide, no-one would never ask them to make an actual decision.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#212

Post by waps »

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #92
lostlogin wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a 2 party system it pretty much is right or left. As a foreigner I'd argue that its far right and right though.

> I'd argue that its far right and right Amein, that is my view as well. I was born in the Netherlands but have lived in the US for 8 years and I still spend 3 months out of the year there. My opinion is that US voters don’t really have choices. It’s right or far right. There are some fringe parties (like various socialist and green parties) but there’s no chance they’ll gain any power. In both the democratic party a…

This is something that amazes me about the Dutch. I'm working not too far from the Netherlands, and nobody here seems to have mentioned that the Dutch state effectively gives elderly 2 choices :

1) they can choose pain meds overdose and/or euthanasia (active/passive)

2) they can choose to go without medical care (when above a certain age, the rule is that if, on average, a treatment does not result in at minimum a 5% increase in the length of useful life per EUR 20k spent per year, that treatment will not be given).

An example I'm intimately familiar with. Someone who required dialysis since he was 38 due to late-onset diabetes which wasn't discovered for too long (ie. partially destroyed his kidneys at a -relatively- young age). The national health insurance would stop covering his treatments at the age of 62 (note that this age is going down due to medical expenses rising above inflation). So the choice was pain meds overdose, or self-poisoning.

To say that this person voluntarily chose euthanasia is a flat-out lie. He would have chosen to prolong his life, if there were no consequences.

The deciding factor for the timing of his death was the financial needs of the state.

Note that the royal family was actually scared of the government they led when it came to a prince who has slipped into a coma. They openly chose to have him treated in the UK (he had an accident in Austria skiing), to prevent the euthanasia choice being made for them. ( http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-would-have-stopped-t... )

I am scared to think how many, percentage-wise, elderly Dutchmen actually are forced to chose between euthanasia and the cessation of most medical aid.

And, frankly, knowing that that person paid decades for health insurance that promised health care until end of life, only to have the government change the deal under him ... I find it reprehensible.

But it never seems to gather much attention. It seems Holland just wants to get rid of it's elderly.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#213

Post by waps »

gcr wrote: post #83
GalacticDomin8r wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bible doesn't condemn suicide(or abortion) anywhere in it directly. However, as with any good moral book, it is ambiguous. You can use it advocate any position you chose. > Yet the Christian right insists that the agony be prolonged to a maximum. Christianity didn't always hold this view. I suppose some of the movement comes from the commandment "Thou shall not kill". Of course that is a very poor translation. A…

I sort of don't understand the thought of turning "Thou shall not kill" into "Thou shall do everything in thine power to keep the person alive"

These rules are not actually from the bible, but from the Greeks, who had much stricter rules.

1) no abortion never jamais, under no circumstances. Nor advising women on how to do it themselves.

2) no euthanasia never jamais, under no circumstances. No advising people on how to DIY it either.

3) no refusing medical aid to anyone for any reason

4) never go against patient wishes for not getting treated

5) never, ever, advise anyone on the use of poison

Some highlights from the Hippocratic oath. The first source of which is, unsurprisingly, not the Bible.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#214

Post by waps »

GalacticDomin8r wrote: post #187
Samuel_Michon wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thou shalt not kill IMO, the question at hand is more like: ‘should we keep someone on life support when there is little to no chance that person will get better?’. And is taking someone off life support really the same as murder?

I believe the question is much, much bigger than simply the involvement of life support. Just address that issue, and you've ignored many people who suffer unnecessarily with no reasonable hope. For example, ALS sufferers don't require life support until the very late stages of the disease. This is long after they've lost the ability to move, speak, or interact meaningfully with those around them.

They still require to be fed and watered and moved. You could neglect to do that.

I do think we should mention that there are definitely 2 cases to consider, maybe 3. First, if that person has made his choice clear. Second if he hasn't. Second case can be split up into "family/friends/significant others want to end it" and otherwise.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#215

Post by waps »

gcr wrote: post #83
GalacticDomin8r wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bible doesn't condemn suicide(or abortion) anywhere in it directly. However, as with any good moral book, it is ambiguous. You can use it advocate any position you chose. > Yet the Christian right insists that the agony be prolonged to a maximum. Christianity didn't always hold this view. I suppose some of the movement comes from the commandment "Thou shall not kill". Of course that is a very poor translation. A…

I sort of don't understand the thought of turning "Thou shall not kill" into "Thou shall do everything in thine power to keep the person alive"

Well, read the hippocratic oath. Learn that not everything comes from the bible. The world will make more sense afterwards.

And if that doesn't clarify things, read some Greek plays about just how wrong things can go, and you'll understand why physicians would want to avoid any involvement and keep things secret. It'll make sense. It'll make make clear even to people who assume the very worst about people that people can go much, much further than they ever dreamed in their worst nightmares. It'll make clear to even the most liberal person that, yes, there are things consenting adults can choose to do that justify throwing them in jail, even execution. Not just one, but plenty.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#216

Post by sp332 »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #26

Since this concerns the U.S. government, I'll say that the vendetta against euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide by the Christian right is puzzling. The Bible has a very ambivalent view on suicide (as with any other topic), the tale of Samson being a prime example. The main argument against suicide comes from Corinthians, but it is starkly contradicted by other passages. A person who is slowly succumbing, immobile,…

Samson wasn't exactly a role model.
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