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NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

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Re: NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

#31

Post by 1337biz »

MisterWebz wrote: post #11
tptacek wrote: post #3

We don't need the Snowden disclosures to know this; it has for 15 years been the worst kept secret in computer security. People from the various groups in NSA that do this work talk about having done it on Twitter. Some of the smartest people in vulnerability research came from stints in NSA. Be outraged that we're spying on your country if that makes you feel better, I guess. I'd rather nobody spied on each other ei…

Has there ever been an NSA thread where you didn't take the opportunity to tell us why whatever the NSA has been doing is completely normal and expected?

The only thing I find even more fascinating than his unwavering attempt to defend the despicable actions of the NSA is how these posts end up every time as the top comments.

Re: NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

#32

Post by dhimes »

1337biz wrote: post #31
MisterWebz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has there ever been an NSA thread where you didn't take the opportunity to tell us why whatever the NSA has been doing is completely normal and expected?

The only thing I find even more fascinating than his unwavering attempt to defend the despicable actions of the NSA is how these posts end up every time as the top comments.

I don't think I've seen him defend their actions, just explain them. I, for one, appreciate it. He is in a sphere that I am not in, and were I to guess whether or not this was well-known behavior, I would have guessed not. And, apparently, I would have been wrong.

So I thank tptacek for sharing what he knows that I don't know. That is, after all, why I come here.

Re: NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

#33

Post by pvnick »

DanBC wrote: post #28
pvnick wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it is intellectually dishonest to pretend that people are just now discovering that NSA was breaking into computers around the world. That is literally the charter of the NSA. It's why they exist at all. You're presenting a red herring here, tptacek. Any third grader who played played Splinter Cell would say, "No duh!" But the news isn't that the NSA is breaking into computers. The news is the scope of the intru…

> The news is the scope of the intrusions (installing malware on 50k computers), and of the motivations for the behavior. GCHQ have said for at least 15 years that their mission is to monitor all communications, world wide, at frequencies from DC to light. They've said that they provide intelligence for their customers, who are the Ministry of Defence and other parts of government. (MI5, MI6, etc). > It's about globa…

I don't know anything about GCHQ, but I don't want British intelligence to have intimate details about my life stored in some nosql database, and I see it as an offensive maneuver by a foreign government from which my government fails to protect me. See my reply to tptacek's post sibling to yours for a general response to your inquiry.

Re: NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

#34

Post by tptacek »

pvnick wrote: post #33
DanBC wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The news is the scope of the intrusions (installing malware on 50k computers), and of the motivations for the behavior. GCHQ have said for at least 15 years that their mission is to monitor all communications, world wide, at frequencies from DC to light. They've said that they provide intelligence for their customers, who are the Ministry of Defence and other parts of government. (MI5, MI6, etc). > It's about globa…

I don't know anything about GCHQ, but I don't want British intelligence to have intimate details about my life stored in some nosql database, and I see it as an offensive maneuver by a foreign government from which my government fails to protect me. See my reply to tptacek's post sibling to yours for a general response to your inquiry.

Well, they do. Just like Russia and China. I agree it's offensive. Now what? Next you'll tell me governments routinely have foreigners killed.

Re: NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

#35

Post by malandrew »

pvnick wrote: post #18
tptacek wrote: post #3

We don't need the Snowden disclosures to know this; it has for 15 years been the worst kept secret in computer security. People from the various groups in NSA that do this work talk about having done it on Twitter. Some of the smartest people in vulnerability research came from stints in NSA. Be outraged that we're spying on your country if that makes you feel better, I guess. I'd rather nobody spied on each other ei…

>But it is intellectually dishonest to pretend that people are just now discovering that NSA was breaking into computers around the world. That is literally the charter of the NSA. It's why they exist at all. You're presenting a red herring here, tptacek. Any third grader who played played Splinter Cell would say, "No duh!" But the news isn't that the NSA is breaking into computers. The news is the scope of the intru…

Yup. TBH I simply don't understand the logic that makes an offensive act against a non-combatants by an individual illegal, but somehow permits that same act against non-combatants by a nation state.

It it is illegal for an individual to murder someone, then it should be illegal for the government to do so. If it is illegal for a programmer to infect thousands of computers of innocent people with malware, then it should be illegal for the government to do so.

I have no doubt in my mind that among those 50k are many innocent people (foreign and domestic), and that among the domestic infections, I doubt the NSA could produce a warrant or other legal instrument that permits them to have caused that infection.

Under what wacky laws do we actually permit such malware. And are there any provisions in those laws proscribing corrections for any offensive malware programs that cause collateral damage.

Re: NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

#36

Post by malandrew »

pvnick wrote: post #25
tptacek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA was breaking into huge numbers of computers long before we were worried about a "caliphate", and the fact that they were doing it was showing up on people's resumes before 9/11 as well. And this isn't about "American Exceptionalism". China didn't hack Google because they were upset about NSA hacking; they did it because Google had information they wanted, so they took it.

Then let's stop deluding ourselves and make it clear that the NSA's charter is about promoting what a small number of powerful unelected beaurocrats believe to be American interests, both politically and economically [1], without significant oversight. Then we can have an honest discussion on whether or not that's a good thing. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...

And while we're at it, let's stop letting them wave the "but the terrorists" flag every time they justify a program for which the goal is a lot more than terrorism (assuming many programs are about terrorism at all. Personally, I suspect most programs have nothing to do with terrorism, but that there is no better way to push through support than to argue "but the terrorists").

Re: NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

#37

Post by salient »

tptacek wrote: post #3

We don't need the Snowden disclosures to know this; it has for 15 years been the worst kept secret in computer security. People from the various groups in NSA that do this work talk about having done it on Twitter. Some of the smartest people in vulnerability research came from stints in NSA. Be outraged that we're spying on your country if that makes you feel better, I guess. I'd rather nobody spied on each other ei…

But it's interesting to know the scale of this, because the bigger the scale, the more people and institutions around the world will starting to think that "hey, they must be doing this to everyone, possibly even to us - so maybe we should do something to protect ourselves better".

Re: NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

#38

Post by MisterWebz »

dhimes wrote: post #32
1337biz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I find even more fascinating than his unwavering attempt to defend the despicable actions of the NSA is how these posts end up every time as the top comments.

I don't think I've seen him defend their actions, just explain them. I, for one, appreciate it. He is in a sphere that I am not in, and were I to guess whether or not this was well-known behavior, I would have guessed not. And, apparently, I would have been wrong. So I thank tptacek for sharing what he knows that I don't know. That is, after all, why I come here.

That's a really good mindset to have. However, saying that what the NSA is doing is expected really doesn't explain anything.

Re: NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

#39

Post by salient »

smtddr wrote: post #17
dragonbonheur wrote: post #14

Don't people usually get to spend decades in prison for that? Shouldn't justice be the same for the NSA as it was for Kevin Mitnick?

As much as I really don't like what the NSA is doing, this argument isn't valid. Law enforcement privileges cannot be directly compared to those of regular citizens. If you want to argue they've abused their privileges... then I'm with you 1,337%

Is NSA "law enforcement" though? They are spies. It is (or should be) also quite illegal for them to be doing that to its own citizens, so if they do that, they should be in prison.

Too bad we live in a time where the president of US and Congress, prefer to protect these guys no matter what (whether it's spying or torture), instead of punishing them according to the law.

Re: NSA infected 50,000 computer networks with malicious software

#40

Post by malandrew »

tptacek wrote: post #24
Luc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My country? Are you kidding, they couldn't hack their way out of a paper bag. Any expertise and equipment they have is provided by the NSA, and they're a bunch of B-players with no budget. The whole situation is uncomfortably asymmetric. Economies of scale I guess. Winner takes it all.

Cheer up. We're also protecting the world's shipping lanes.

From whom? Last I checked we had most of our fleet sitting outside countries with whom we have conflicts of interest and not countries known for harboring pirates taking over private vessels. When was the last time a US war ship captured a Somali pirate vessel?
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