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US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

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Re: US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

#211
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>France is a strange country that likes to give lessons about democracy to the rest of the world Coming from an american (I guess), i find this hilarious. >France is closer to a monarchy than a democracy. I can get the comparison, current constitution was made to give important powers to the president (heavily influenced by Charles de Gaulle, which wasn't the best idea). American democracy funding looks very much lik…

Camus2 seems to be French. You would not be at risk of making embarrassing mistakes like this if you made an effort to find actual arguments, instead of attempting to criticize the person you are imagining the commenter to be.

Just seen that.

For what it's worse, this kind of critics hurt less from a fellow french (maybe because we have endured stupid governments together?).

My comment was not my brightest, far from it (none of my comment in this thread, in fact), but seeing so much french-bashing à la reddit, was too much for me I guess.

The worse is that I read this story in a french newspaper an hour before, which was less partial than the convict's blog. Gave up posting it here because paywall + language where too much hurdle for HN, and couldn't find a better article.

Seing this article afterward and the quality of the response (up to the article's value I guess), well, my reaction was not up to my own standards.

.

Still, the french institution judgment was quite stupid, and we had a good laugh. The blogger's reaction to is incoming legal battle was beyond stupid. When you receive official document an incoming legal battle, you don't ignore it outright, you either deal with it or hire someone to do it, you check what you can do and what you risk. Ignoring it until you are fined is not the best way to be heard when complaining afterward.

I'll let the previous comment I made in the thread untouched. That way I'll think twice before being rude next time.

Re: US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are bad (although obviously there is a discrepancy in seriousness here) . We should not fail to criticize one because the other also happens.

Yes but to make sweeping complaints about the French as an American is absurd. (And note that I myself pointed out that France has a serious problem with institutionalized corruption, not that the US has anything to crow about.)

I don't see where gnu8 made any statement and/or attack about France. Would you kindly point this out for me so I can read it?

Re: US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are bad (although obviously there is a discrepancy in seriousness here) . We should not fail to criticize one because the other also happens.

Yes but to make sweeping complaints about the French as an American is absurd. (And note that I myself pointed out that France has a serious problem with institutionalized corruption, not that the US has anything to crow about.)

> "Yes but to make sweeping complaints about the French as an American is absurd."

I'll repeat what I've said elsewhere in this dicussion:

"Insane laws in one place do not make laws in another place any less insane. If we universalized your attitude towards criticism, then only those blessed to live in utopias would have the privilege of leveling complaints at other systems."

Americans do get to criticize the French government. Americans get to criticize the American government. French get to criticize the French government. French get to criticize the American government. Zimbabweans get to criticize the Portuguese government. The Portuguese get to criticize the the Swiss government.

Everybody gets to criticize any government they please, no matter what government happens to lay stake to the place that they live. It is absurd to think otherwise.

Re: US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are probably referring to this: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonds_sp%C3%A9ciaux quick translation: before 2001 the President and its ministers used to receive "secret funding" that they could use for whatever they wanted. The money came from Banque de France (public money, not money from a private bank). This has been mostly suppressed in 2001 (the amounts are now public information), except for secret services…

I'm glad it's been reformed (I think it came to light during the ELF scandal). But yes, my overall point is it's just a matter of pot calling kettle black.

When the pot calls the kettle black, the pot is not incorrect.

Re: US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For your arrogant comment, I hereby fine you 100 bit coins and a copy of every game on Steam that I don't currently own. Any responses to this comment must be made in German and include an mp3 file of the responder reading aloud the written German in the most stereotypically shrill German accent possible.

Come on, that's so languagist. You should at least allow for something universal like Egyptian, Demotic, or Greek. That way the rest of us have a chance of translating it.

Upon further consideration, I will waive the German language requirement for responses in exchange for responses written in ancient Greek only, and accompanied with a lifetime supply of feta cheese.

Re: US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

#216
post #47

The comments here are atrocious. I expected more from HN than senseless French-bashing and 'Murica flag-waving. A few informations for context: - Two bloggers were fined, one French, and the American one for quoting the French. - The fine emanated from the Commission des Sanctions (sanction committee) of the AMF (Autorité des Marchés Financiers), the French stock market regulator. - It's supposed to be independent, b…

> I expected more from HN than senseless French-bashing and 'Murica flag-waving.

Criticizing France in this case has nothing to do with nationalism. It's about basic rights.

I'm disheartened by how many countries disrespect their citizens' innate freedoms--even first-world countries that are supposedly democratic and.

Prosecuting and fining someone publishing an opinion is wrong. Trying to fine a blogger 8000 Euros for merely quoting another blogger is ridiculous (and wrong). Why doesn't France have an equivalent of the First Amendment?

This story reminds me of another a few weeks ago, about UK police forcing people to give up their encryption passwords on penalty of jail time. That's an unreasonable search; and even if the subject is guilty, forced self-incrimination is wrong. Why doesn't the UK have equivalents of the Fourth and Fifth Amendments?

I'm not suggesting that the US is better at respecting people's rights. Better laws don't help if the government chooses to ignore the law.

The Bill of Rights was revolutionary in the 18th century. The fact that many of those basic rights are still routinely violated in 2013---even in places like the US, the UK, and France---makes me sad. We have democracies. Why can't we do better?

Re: US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

#217
post #80

I would be more happy to read something like "Human blogger fined 8,000 euros by the french justice department for criticizing a bank". Now it sounds like the people of France decided to fine just an American blogger.

Looks like a bad choice of re-title. But I don't think it was intended to highlight the fact the blogger was American. > Human blogger fined 8,000 euros by the french justice department for criticizing a bank You missed the point where they were fining a non-French blogger that was giving straight facts and practicing his free speech.

Non-French doesn't mean American.

I mean, do you believe the case would be different if the blogger was, say, Italian?

Re: US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

#218
post #104

This judgment is unenforceable in the United States as a matter of public policy (thanks to our First Amendment). So it's merely an attempt by Société Générale to muzzle critics. If Mish were a multinational company with operations in France, it would be different. But he's not. So he can gleefully ignore it, as he is, correctly, doing.

> So he can gleefully ignore it, as he is, correctly, doing. Ignoring it would mean "never base your action on that decision". However, now he can't travel to France or any of the french territories (Martinique etc.). That's not what I'd call ignoring. It's a shitty situation: Fined for invalid reasons in a trial where you never had a chance to fight.

Yes, other countries have silly laws. I'm sure if you set up a blog complaining about the king of Swaziland, for instance, and his predilection for selecting an additional wife, willing or not, every year from the selection of bare-breasted virgin teenage girls paraded before him[1], you might not want to visit that particular corner of Africa.

But the reach of Swazi or French laws is limited unless you visit Swazi or French soil. And in the case of the French libel law in question here, I'm not clear it would even preclude a visit to Paris. Do you have any citation for the proposition that a visitor would be arrested for what would be a civil tort?

BTW, if he fought it in France, he would lose. See yesterday's "due process" discussion. If it's a bad law, due process helps you not one whit.

[1] True: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/aug/30/aids.andrewmeld...

Re: US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

#219
post #179
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France has no jurisdiction. U.S. courts will not enforce this civil judgment. Our 1A precludes them from doing so. And the blogger in question said he's not going to France. (BTW, a civil judgment is not "a crime by French law.")

France, as any other country, decides for itself whether or not it has jurisdiction other than if/when the jurisdiction is decided through treaties. E.g. I'm Norwegian - Norway claims jurisdiction for certain types of crimes worldwide for Norwegian citizens (quite a few other countries do too). Enforcability is entirely separate from jurisdiction.

France can claim jurisdiction as much as it likes, but U.S. courts will not as a practical matter (we settled this in the Yahoo case) recognize it and enforce the judgment.

Re: US blogger fined 8,000 Euros by France for criticizing Société Générale

#220
post #143
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France has no jurisdiction. U.S. courts will not enforce this civil judgment. Our 1A precludes them from doing so. And the blogger in question said he's not going to France. (BTW, a civil judgment is not "a crime by French law.")

It was not a civil judgment but a public one handled by an independant administrative authority with the power to pronounce sanctions (French public law is separate from both criminal and civil law and includes administrative law). It is not so much about free speech: the two guys have been fined for publishing incorrect information about the financial situation of a bank. It is more about financial regulation than f…

It is all about free speech. Publishing incorrect information about the financial situation of a bank (in the way Mish did it, and even assuming it's incorrect) is protected by the First Amendment in the United States. But it is not in France. See NYT v. Sullivan and the separate but related concept of "neutral reportage."
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