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A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

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Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#341

Post by jnbiche »

javajosh wrote: post #61
rfnslyr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anybody else constantly live in a state of guilt? So many lives lost and wars fought just to get us to where we are, and we reap the benefits. I feel so guilty for having a good paying job in the city. I'm not adding any value to the world, none at all. I tinker with a few codes every day and make silly amounts of money, when there's people struggling to put food on the table working 18 hour days. I need to do s…

There is hope. Software is the key to addressing a great deal of injustice in the world. I believe that software programmers who want to make a difference can do so by collaborating on open source projects intended for use by government at every level. Consider: if we can write the software that cities, states, and even the federal government uses to do it's job, then we can also have a material impact on transparenc…

> it would arguably contribute greatly to society.

It would contribute to the system that is perpetuating these kinds of injustices. Recall that a good portion of these people serving life sentences for non-violent crimes are in state prisons. How is helping them build their software systems going to find justice for a man in jail for life for stealing some tools?

By the way, this is not a rhetorical question: I'm honestly trying to understand this point of view.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#342

Post by PeterisP »

whiddershins wrote: post #293
clarky07 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

perhaps you are right, but "stealing a wallet" is minimizing the severity of what happened. Breaking and entering is different than being a pickpocket. Grabbing a wallet off a table in a restaurant is different than someone breaking into your house. That seems obvious to me. I'd also hope that after your "long time of 6 months in jail for stealing a wallet" you'd realize that it was a poor choice and not do it again.…

I feel a man could steal 1000 wallets and not deserve 10 years in jail, much less life in prison. even if he never, ever, ever, learned his lesson. I personally would not send a person to prison for life for a property crime, and a small one at that. This phrase is repeated often in this thread, "draw the line," but some people will not conform, some people will commit petty criminal acts, for a lifetime. IMHO that i…

"I feel a man could steal 1000 wallets and not deserve 10 years in jail"

After, say, 100 wallets stolen how do you prevent the next 900 victims from suffering? The victims have absolute rights for protection and compassion; but a repeat offender has intentionally chosen to throw away whatever ties with society he had. There's a social contract about things we do and don't do to each other; we generally don't take others stuff, don't hurt each others and we show compassion to others in our society - so if you repeatedly choose to break the social contract, by taking others stuff and not showing compassion; then why should others show compassion and refrain from hurting you?

If someone can go to my house and take my stuff, why should I be forcibly prevented by police from going to his house and taking his stuff?

If someone is an unquestionably repeat offender, then preventing future crimes is a mandatory goal; respecting the offender is important but, if we can't do otherwise, it's optional. If there is a more humane way to solve it than permanent isolation from society (life sentence, permanent mental institution, execution or exile), then I'd like to hear that and would greatly support it.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#343

Post by rayiner »

jmadsen wrote: post #285

I think at the root of this is a very prevalent attitude among a many people in America toward "not letting people get away with things" I don't think you can look at this in a vacuum - you need to see these punishments as simply another manifestation of this attitude. This is not a "this group vs. that group" thing; you may find this among "fire and brimstone" Democrats just as often as your "Limburgh Republicans".…

There is this attitude, but there is also the other thing: economic and racial social conflict. It cannot be ignored that in California, which has only 6.5% black people, almost 45% of offenders sentenced under three strikes laws are black. Americans not only hate letting people get away with things, but they have particularly little sympathy for policies that disproportionately affect racial minorities. This is the legacy of segregation and suburbanization: it's hard to care about what happens to people in other racial and economic demographics when you're living in a racially and economically homogenous suburb and never actually encounter these people except to hear in the news about crimes in their communities.

That said, I don't think these attitudes arise because Americans are bad people. America genuinely has a crime problem. London's murder rate is about 1.2 per 100,000. Chicago's is 15.9 per 100,000, while places like New Orleans and Detroit are around 50-60 per 100k. It's not particularly surprising Americans are less sympathetic than Europeans when it comes to punishment.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#344

Post by phaus »

cmccabe wrote: post #141
lostlogin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Failure to sign the Ottawa treaty (anti landmine) and the international criminal court agreements, execution of minors (and execution at all), assassination of opponents even if citizens (via drones), torture, war crimes, illegal invasions, use of phosphorus (probably comes under war crimes), continual killing of civilians in non declared wars, massive prison population, secret prisons, outsourcing torture, supportin…

Three-strikes laws are dumb, but so are you. Take your anti-US agenda somewhere else. I suggest North Korea, China, Venezuela, Iran, Russia, or any of the other countries not allied with us, so you can see how much "better" they are.

The phenomenon where people like you act as if anyone with something critical to say about the United States lacks patriotism is the very thing that is destroying our nation. I'm a moderate conservative and a Soldier, but your "love it or leave it" attitude is sickening to me. Its ruining our country, so please stop.

Sure many countries are horrible places to live compared to the United States, but if we ignore our problems as you would have us do, that might not always be the case.

Our founding fathers knew from the very start that government is but a necessary evil. One that requires constant monitoring and modification in order to keep the power in the hands of the American people, which is where it belongs. Patriotism is about loving one's country, not worshipping the government.

I don't agree with every criticism of the United States that appeared in this thread, but I do agree with some of them.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#345

Post by michaelt »

rayiner wrote: post #340
spodek wrote: post #7

It's a crying shame. Normally that's an empty phrase, but it describes this. I can't imagine reading this and not feeling tears well up. No sense of what I would call humanity. From what perspective does this make the world a better place? What am I missing about being human that this fits into that I don't understand?

The ACLU page is rather manipulative in that they construe the facts very favorably to the convicted. E.g. "After serving two years in prison during his mid-twenties for inadvertently killing someone during a bar fight." Oh yes, he just accidentally killed someone in a bar fight. Happens all the time really, right up there with leaving your credit card with the hostess after getting a little too tipsy. It would be le…

  It would be less biased to show statistics for the kind of 
  people sentenced under the three strikes law, but that 
  wouldn't tug the heart strings as much.
Perhaps we could aspire to have a law that works right in outlier cases, not just on average?

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#346

Post by Daniel_Newby »

rayiner wrote: post #340
spodek wrote: post #7

It's a crying shame. Normally that's an empty phrase, but it describes this. I can't imagine reading this and not feeling tears well up. No sense of what I would call humanity. From what perspective does this make the world a better place? What am I missing about being human that this fits into that I don't understand?

The ACLU page is rather manipulative in that they construe the facts very favorably to the convicted. E.g. "After serving two years in prison during his mid-twenties for inadvertently killing someone during a bar fight." Oh yes, he just accidentally killed someone in a bar fight. Happens all the time really, right up there with leaving your credit card with the hostess after getting a little too tipsy. It would be le…

> Americans are particularly unsympathetic to racial minorities living on the edge.

AFAICT, it's about neurological differences, not racial or cultural differences. White people with low IQ or poor impulse control get shafted just as hard, they are just a smaller proportion of the population. Gypsies and trailer trash are just as screwed as minorities of color.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#347

Post by Jtsummers »

pandaman wrote: post #273
tluyben2 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite worrying that a country seems to do some sort of precog on these people; i'm sure there are cases where stealing a wallet goes on to assault, rape or murder. I don't think locking people up because that could happen is a brilliant plan. Why not lock up a lot more people? I mean little boys who torture (and kill) animals turn into killers? It's pretty vague and weird to think like that. This guy obviously h…

Indeed, it's very stange to think like that. We don't punish some future consequences. We punish dangerous and harmful behavior. "Dangerous" does not mean "correlated with some future harmful developments". It means the immediate possibility of harm. This is why torturing animals is not dangerous (for humans at least), speeding is a minor danger and burglary is a severe danger. Also, I believe you are implying that t…

You:

> Burglary is punished so severely because, like you said, the end result can be much worse than just stealing property.

Also you:

> We don't punish some future consequences. We punish dangerous and harmful behavior.

Please help me make these two statements make sense together. In this case, the severe penalty is only justifiable with a view of what might happen or what might have happened (that he might steal again, that he might become violent in future thefts, that he might have hurt those men). Now to the first might, I'll grant it's actually pretty likely. But to the second might, it's hardly clear, every summary I found suggested none of the past thefts or youthful cocaine charge (possession? couldn't find specifics) were violent. And the third might is the justification you offered in the earlier post. Which means, what, punish people for how bad their crimes could have been rather than how bad they actually were? I was in a car accident (my fault, rear ended a guy), it could have resulted in a fatality had it been at higher speeds (we were, at most, moving 10mph), should I be treated as if I had committed vehicular manslaughter?

What might happen in a crime ought to be irrelevant, what did happen is the important part. And again, in this case it appears that violence didn't enter into the equation. Might the victims have felt there could have been violence? Sure, but fear of violence (in this case he didn't even threaten violence, he came up with a lame story and ran off) is not the same as being the victim of violence.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#348

Post by Jtsummers »

Livven wrote: post #322
AndyJPartridge wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, it's not just the financial cost of a theft, it's the emotional and practical cost too. Having had 5 laptops stolen in one hit - because I was updating staff that weekend and the guy got lucky - the cost of changing passwords, and the nagging feeling I may have missed something somewhere and I may get hit with another internet theft.... Then the feeling that the guy(s?) were in my house while my partner…

You just seriously advocated having someone who stole your laptop locked up in prison for life because of the inconvenience they caused you? Wow.

Best I can tell it's an issue of philosophy. Many people in the US (my people, lucky me) are fearful and angry. We really seem to like our vengeance (consider the country music songs that were coming out post 9/11 as we entered Afghanistan and Iraq). When it comes to crime we don't bother with "rehabilitation". When it comes to mental health, that's clearly a lack of personal responsibility. If I can tell that they aren't really a knight in King Arthur's court on a holy quest, then they should be able to realize it too. Lock them up, throw away the key.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#349

Post by enko »

reginaldjcooper wrote: post #331
downandout wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a crying shame. That is an appropriate reaction, but the ACLU's focus on life without parole sentences grossly understates the savagery of US sentencing schemes. Tens of thousands more inmates are serving life with the possibility of parole for non-violent crimes. These inmates may very well never be released, and if they are they will have served so long that they will never be able to recover. In Nevada, for…

Multiple DUIs do deserve a severe punishment IMO, because that is attempted murder basically and they are a danger to the public. The rest I agree are ridiculous. Huffing drugs three times does not deserve permanent incarceration.

> that is attempted murder basically

Oh come on. I've lost my license for what you'd call DUI - made a stupid decision to drive the 1.5km back home from a pub, got a 1 year ban and a hefty fine. Yes, it was a stupid thing to do and I deserve what I got, but attempted murder? Don't be ridiculous.

At most repeated DUI is criminal negligence, and negligence on the part of whomever supplied the offender with the vehicle. It should be met with driving bans and escalating punishments if those are ignored. Life imprisonment is an amazingly harsh and expensive over-punishment for a stupid but usually non-malicious crime.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#350

Post by tehabe »

reginaldjcooper wrote: post #331
downandout wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a crying shame. That is an appropriate reaction, but the ACLU's focus on life without parole sentences grossly understates the savagery of US sentencing schemes. Tens of thousands more inmates are serving life with the possibility of parole for non-violent crimes. These inmates may very well never be released, and if they are they will have served so long that they will never be able to recover. In Nevada, for…

Multiple DUIs do deserve a severe punishment IMO, because that is attempted murder basically and they are a danger to the public. The rest I agree are ridiculous. Huffing drugs three times does not deserve permanent incarceration.

Yes, like revoking the driver's license for good. Not a life prison sentence!
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