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A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

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Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#291

Post by x0054 »

waps wrote: post #276
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No

I keep wondering how people can possibly defend what Snowden did. He used social engineering exploits in his job as sysadmin on a large scale, then published the resulting information. He apparently even compromised personal accounts of the people he was supposed to help. Are we seriously suggesting letting people do this if they think the goal is just ? It seems so. I shudder to think what the consequences of that w…

Yes, you are right, it would have been much better if we did not know what NSA does, and to what extent it violates our rights. NSA officials lying to congress, no big deal. A man standing up for what he believes and releasing the truth about a corrupt, lying, and out of control governmental organization. By god, that fucker needs to die!

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#292

Post by EliRivers »

waps wrote: post #283
EliRivers wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't get too worked up about a system that sentences this guy to life in prison. Is that seriously the best fucking option you can come up with? A massively expensive revenge-trip that causes far, far more damage than the theft of a wallet? Perhaps there's some kind of much, much more effective way to get him to stop taking things that don't belong to him. I say perhaps; of course there are. Lots, that are cheaper…

I wonder what his three strikes are ? I thought that for three strikes you're only fucked if at least one of those strikes involved violence and a victim ?

I understand that (in California, at least) the first two strikes must be for serious or violent felonies; violence is not necessary to count.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#293

Post by whiddershins »

clarky07 wrote: post #227
whiddershins wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I posted another comment to this effect, but "a long time" is a concept that I think has become distorted in our culture. If you or I got even 6 months in jail for stealing a wallet, I am pretty sure it would feel like "a long time." This business of decades or life imprisonment for property crimes is draconian, we have just collectively lost perspective. IMHO.

perhaps you are right, but "stealing a wallet" is minimizing the severity of what happened. Breaking and entering is different than being a pickpocket. Grabbing a wallet off a table in a restaurant is different than someone breaking into your house. That seems obvious to me. I'd also hope that after your "long time of 6 months in jail for stealing a wallet" you'd realize that it was a poor choice and not do it again.…

I feel a man could steal 1000 wallets and not deserve 10 years in jail, much less life in prison. even if he never, ever, ever, learned his lesson. I personally would not send a person to prison for life for a property crime, and a small one at that.

This phrase is repeated often in this thread, "draw the line," but some people will not conform, some people will commit petty criminal acts, for a lifetime. IMHO that is no justification for locking them up indefinitely.

Think of marijuana legislation, one minute you can be locked up for life, the next minute it is legal. No matter what the crime, there is an element of subjectivity, fashion, culture, in what punishments we apply. Yes, some people may not rehabilitate. But that fact alone doesn't justify life in prison. Or even a severe sentence.

Compassion is real. It is important, even when it is inconvenient, even for people who suck.

At least, that's how I see it.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#294

Post by EliRivers »

waps wrote: post #276
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No

I keep wondering how people can possibly defend what Snowden did. He used social engineering exploits in his job as sysadmin on a large scale, then published the resulting information. He apparently even compromised personal accounts of the people he was supposed to help. Are we seriously suggesting letting people do this if they think the goal is just ? It seems so. I shudder to think what the consequences of that w…

Are we seriously suggesting letting people do this if they think the goal is just ? It seems so. I shudder to think what the consequences of that would be.

This is actually a significant part of why we have trial by jury (according to some; others argue that it's just silly); they can decide that the accused did commit the crime and still return not guilty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#295

Post by x0054 »

waps wrote: post #279
vijucat wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here is the US, we're allowed to criticize the government. Mostly true, I suppose, but I remember this : "TSA loudspeakers threaten travelers with arrest for making jokes" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkWPMeLSk6M

I think that falls under the "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" rule [1]. Yes, the US has freedom of expression, and you can claim whatever you want about the government (you can even lie). But if you yell 'fire' in a theatre with 500 people and 1 small exit, or 'allahu akbar' in a TSA line, you deserve to get sued and punished for that. That is not legally considered to be freedom of expression. Personally I don't…

That stupid and overused quote comes from an opinion by justice Holmes. "Holmes, writing for a unanimous Court, ruled that it was a violation of the Espionage Act of 1917 (amended with the Sedition Act of 1918), to distribute flyers opposing the draft during World War I." - Wikipedia.

Read the case before you quote it. American Supreme Court has done a lot of injustices in its time. And this is one of the more egregious once.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#296

Post by AndyJPartridge »

Jtsummers wrote: post #159
thaumasiotes wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I bet you wouldn't go for life in prison for someone who get three speeding tickets. Sure. > Once we agree that there is a line, then it just comes down to which side of the line a particular crime is on. I actually don't find this to follow, because your example is exceptionally poor. I don't favor speeding tickets at all; as far as I can see, they're just a way for governments to capriciously collect extra revenu…

> I don't favor speeding tickets at all; as far as I can see, they're just a way for governments to capriciously collect extra revenue from people without giving it the politically unpopular name of "taxes". > Repeated-burglaries guy is obviously opting out of functioning in society. If the cost of keeping him out of it exceeds the cost he inflicts by his presence, I'd say we should keep him incarcerated and spend le…

The thing is, it's not just the financial cost of a theft, it's the emotional and practical cost too.

Having had 5 laptops stolen in one hit - because I was updating staff that weekend and the guy got lucky - the cost of changing passwords, and the nagging feeling I may have missed something somewhere and I may get hit with another internet theft....

Then the feeling that the guy(s?) were in my house while my partner and I were sleeping. Na. People who do this need to be taken out of society.

For the speeding point, you can kill people at 30mph if something goes wrong with the car or you do something stupid.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#297

Post by x0054 »

drivingmissm wrote: post #263
grey-area wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should try looking at prison differently. It's incredibly expensive to lock someone up for their life - that's four walls, meals, space to exercise and guards for say another 40 years. We shouldn't spend that unless the alternative would cost a lot more (say violence against another person, a person's life). he woke two vacationing golfers as he entered the room and stole a wallet, then pretended to be a security…

U.S. violent crime rates have plummeted in part because of higher incarceration. A lot of people on this list don't remember when cities like New York and Washington, DC were very dangerous places and all native born inhabitants were leaving.

Incarceration has nothing to do with crime deterrent. Proper policing and better economy prevents crime. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#298

Post by vacri »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #8
mschuster91 wrote: post #2

As an European citizen, I think such "sentences" are more resembling China, Russia or any other dictatorship, but not a first-world country. Do human rights actually mean something in the US?

You can have cute little Norwegian jails with light sentences when the population is Norwegians. But America is not Norway. We have a large underclass of people capable of destroying whole communities. Have you seen those pictures of Detroit in ruins? Crime in the 1970s got out of control. Stuff like this played a role in turning it around.

Norwegians comprise a mere 0.6% of the population of Europe.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#299

Post by andrewaylett »

GuiA wrote: post #71
anigbrowl wrote: post #4

This is poorly focused. I'm absolutely against 3 strikes sentencing laws and mandatory sentencing escalations that can put petty criminals in prison for life. On the other hand, I'm perfectly OK with some criminals dying behind bars, such as the recently sentenced Whitey Bulger, and so are most other people. By making the headline about the undesirability of custodial life sentences in general, they'er losing a large…

So, question- if you actively support putting people behind bars with the intent of seeing them die there, why not just kill them right away? If the intent is for them to not cause any harm to society, then that'll get the job done while saving money for society and making them suffer for a shorter period of time. Unless the goal is to make them suffer for their entire life as punishment; in which case, why not just…

It's very difficult to release an executed man if new evidence shows he's innocent after all.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#300

Post by einehexe »

clarky07 wrote: post #101
GuiA wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in the southeast of the US as well as the west coast, and I am from Europe. To my foreign eyes, infrastructures and poverty levels in the south east of the US definitely made it feel like a 3rd world country.

It depends on where you are. Certainly on average there are more poorer areas, but there are plenty of nice areas as well. Atlanta, Nashville and a few other places are really nice. Edit: Also 3rd world is a bit hyperbolic. Even the bad areas of the southeast aren't comparable to most of Africa and the real 3rd world.

Claiming the US is a third world country may make Europeans feel better about their place in the world but it has fuck all to do with reality.
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