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What Long Hours Really Mean

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Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#131

Post by crusso »

joelrunyon wrote: post #47
dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

> "deserves" This word always makes me coil. Everytime I hear it - I assume someone is trying to sell me something.

Because words like "deserve" and "rights" are normally followed by "here is the new law to enforce what we feel everyone deserves".

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#132

Post by dev_jim »

throwaway092834 wrote: post #128
dev_jim wrote: post #125

"Working for free" after 40 hours never resonated with me. It comes out of hard fought labor battles, but an assembly line is difficult to relate to when I'm eating free snacks in my comfy Aeron chair and working on things that generally interest me. I think the biggest issue here is misaligned expectations between boss and worker. Personally, I've always gone into a job understanding what it was going to take to be…

I agree with your overall perspective. I'd like to add that the statement "If you’re salaried, you’re working for free" is inaccurate in two very important dimensions: 1) Equity stake. The 40 hour workweek was invented for laborers, not owners. Would the author admonish a business owner to only work 8 hours a week? At what level of ownership stake does it become acceptable to work more than 8 hours? 2) Compensation i…

> that consistent hard work generally results in rather substantially increased compensation and opportunity in the long term.

I agree. I don't think I'd be in the same place in my career today if I had a "working for free" attitude. Sometimes it was more hours and sometimes it was just a genuine curiosity about taking on challenges that are completely foreign to me.

Getting increases in comp is always a long-term game. There's no road map (i.e., work 2 more hours building this to get that experience which will increase my market value by X) and you'll go down a lot of wrong roads that will add zero to your market value. More importantly it requires delayed gratification. There can be a long delay between the work you put in and the payoff.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#133

Post by crusso »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #75
joelrunyon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "deserves" This word always makes me coil. Everytime I hear it - I assume someone is trying to sell me something.

New, from Labor Union! WEEKENDS! Two whole days off from work every week! You buying yet?

The Republicans freed the slaves, Mussolini made the trains run on time, and Ben Affleck was in Good Will Hunting.

I hate cherry picking arguments presented as though they mean something.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#134

Post by arethuza »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #130
arethuza wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years back I changed from a 1 hour drive (with completely unpredictable queues and delays) to get to work to a very pleasant 25 minute walk - which I love. The only problem is that having got used to this I'd be very reluctant to take a job that I could walk or cycle to - which is a bit limiting.

I had a half hour walk to work for a couple years and I was always shredded. I exercise regularly anyway, but with that easy daily hour of walking my body fat stayed super low without any real deliberate effort.

I can't say my walk is great exercise - but as it is through central Edinburgh it is very scenic!

I did used to cycle ~10 miles to work, which was far better exercise. Unfortunately my employer doesn't want to relocate to a convenient distance just for me.... :-)

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#135

Post by aaronem »

com2kid wrote: post #69
dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

By what natural law is this true? By what will of nature or physics are you deriving your statements? Deserves? Why does anyone deserve anything? Nature itself does not act that way. People around the world deserve not to live in fear of their government killing them. Women deserve not to live in fear of being raped. Children should not live in fear of abuse. Yet untold millions starve, are beaten, tortured, abused,…

Are you a Hobbesian or a communist? I don't see how it is possible to be both simultaneously, but you sure do appear to be trying for it.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#136

Post by hkarthik »

collyw wrote: post #126
dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

My girlfriend is a doctor, and tells me stories about when she had recently qualified, and working silly hours. It seems crazy that a high responsibility job like that, where peoples lives depend on it, and it is expected to be done by sleep deprived junior doctors. She is Mexican, but as far as I can tell it is not restricted to that country.

My friends who have become doctors here in the US say the same thing. 1st and 2nd year residents (the low paid gigs they get right after med school) often work 24 hour shifts pretty regularly with only 6-8 hours between shifts.

I think the main reason is there are two few doctors for too many patients. The reasons for that situation are a separate topic all together.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#137

Post by normloman »

com2kid wrote: post #69
dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

By what natural law is this true? By what will of nature or physics are you deriving your statements? Deserves? Why does anyone deserve anything? Nature itself does not act that way. People around the world deserve not to live in fear of their government killing them. Women deserve not to live in fear of being raped. Children should not live in fear of abuse. Yet untold millions starve, are beaten, tortured, abused,…

"How about those of us born into a life of privilege work harder until suffering is alleviated, until pain is removed, until equality is reached."

Chances are, you ain't alleviating suffering around the world by putting in overtime at your shitty startup job. So feel free to pack up at 5PM.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#138

Post by hkarthik »

pedalpete wrote: post #20
tslathrow wrote: post #14

Seeing as I grew up on 80+ hour workweeks, I can promise you this is false for a certain group of people. I spent two years in banking - normally we had 18+ hour workdays... definitely gave me stamina later on. Tier 1 bonus bucket at a bulge bracket one year, Tier 2 the other year. You pretty much always end up getting paid for hard work.

This is not correct, you don't 'pretty much always end up getting paid for hard work'. I've worked in a few startups, as well as had my own where I was working 6-7 days a week 15+hours on most week days, and it didn't result in a big pay day. I've had lots of stock in bankrupt companies and experience to show for it. However, I will say that it is possible you'll gain lots of experience, and I wouldn't give up my lon…

He specifically said it was false for a certain group of people (those in banking).

People in banking/finance have a very skewed sense of reality when it comes to work and fair compensation. You generally have to take their anecdotal advice with a grain of salt if that's all they've ever done.

No line of work can consistently deliver the kinds of returns that finance can. Hence its very easy to justify the longer hours in that industry since they turn into very real dollars. For the rest of us, putting a dollar value on our output is much harder to quantify.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#139

Post by dustingetz »

"LONG HOURS ≠ MORE PRODUCTIVITY OR BETTER WORK."

this is false and debunked in mythical man month. It follows from "adding manpower to a late software project makes it later" that we need to add hours, not people. Or we can break our contract if we'd rather to that.

"We respect ourselves and our people enough to honor their time and their personal lives so we cannot agree to your deadline."

This also misses the point - projects start on time and end late. at the time the deadline was agreed to, we happily accepted payment.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#140

Post by shadowfiend »

dustingetz wrote: post #139

"LONG HOURS ≠ MORE PRODUCTIVITY OR BETTER WORK." this is false and debunked in mythical man month. It follows from "adding manpower to a late software project makes it later" that we need to add hours, not people. Or we can break our contract if we'd rather to that. "We respect ourselves and our people enough to honor their time and their personal lives so we cannot agree to your deadline." This also misses the point…

The Mythical Man Month points out that adding manpower doesn't accelerate a project. In no way does that mean that adding hours does. They are completely unrelated ideas.

Adding manpower doesn't accelerate a project because more people doesn't immediately mean more productivity. Adding hours can only accelerate a project if more hours means more productivity. There are multiple studies that show this is false after a short period (a week or two), and that you rapidly go in the opposite direction. The mythical man month's points are irrelevant to this.

You're starting off with the base idea that there is something you can add can make a late software project more on time. Reality seems to indicate that often, a late software project will simply be late, unless you cut scope or corners mercilessly. Unless, in essence, you remove something.

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