What Long Hours Really Mean • Hacker News Board

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#121

Post by grandinj » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 1:11 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #6

gruseom wrote: post #2

This is an emotional topic, the discussion of which is nearly always evidence-free. How could one study it objectively?

I tested it back when I ran a dev team. We were faced by constant pressure to develop customer stuff faster, and the team were doing regular 60+ hour weeks. I put in some new rules on hours, including: - no dev worked more than 40 hours on scheduled projects. Overtime was for disaster recovery or slippage repair to meet a deadline - if the salesperson agreed to a new deadline, then we went over their other tasks and…

I'd like to second this - I ran the same stats once, while contracting for a customer with excessive demands.

I found that a week of working long hours was about my max, and after that I started making mistakes to the point that the extra hours actually became counter productive.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#122

Post by walshemj » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 1:17 PM UTC

enjo wrote: post #18

christianmann wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to discount this, but where does commute fall into this breakdown?

That's on your own time:) Seriously, people need to start living closer to work (and demanding that work make that possible).

mm yes id like that nice two bed flat in red lion square in London but i dont have a spare million or so to hand.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#123

Post by rwallace » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 1:19 PM UTC

dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

Especially a doctor on whom many lives are depending, because so many of those lives are being lost to fatigue-induced mistakes. I know someone who almost died that way; she had a healthy distrust of hospitals, watched carefully what was going on, and noticed just in time when an exhausted doctor was about to give her the wrong injection which would probably have killed her. The doctor just mumbled "oh, sorry," and shambled on her way, perhaps to kill some other patient at a later date.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#124

Post by djKianoosh » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 1:53 PM UTC

dmd149 wrote: post #116

I always feel super lazy when I read these articles criticizing excessively long work weeks. Honestly, I think 40 hours is way too long, especially when the bulk of it is boring. That being said, when you're working on something you enjoy and you get into that "flow" state, time becomes irrelevant. If something is fun and energizes you, you can do it without watching the clock, which the author does with his side pro…

a lot of comments here dance around the "quality" of hours.

the "flow" state you describe is quality time. we all pretty much like that.

on the flip side, if i'm at home 12 hours a day but my wife is in the other room and my child is watching tv while i'm on my phone checking twitter and hacker news... you get the point.

all these numbers and thresholds are practically irrelevant. quality of time spent is key...

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#125

Post by dev_jim » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 1:56 PM UTC

"Working for free" after 40 hours never resonated with me. It comes out of hard fought labor battles, but an assembly line is difficult to relate to when I'm eating free snacks in my comfy Aeron chair and working on things that generally interest me.

I think the biggest issue here is misaligned expectations between boss and worker. Personally, I've always gone into a job understanding what it was going to take to be successful. My comp expectations are adjusted accordingly. In trading bonds, which is nearly a 24 hour market, it does require >8 hours on the trading floor. At the end of the year my boss doesn't really care about my hours as long as our customers are happy and I've produced PnL.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#126

Post by collyw » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 1:58 PM UTC

dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

My girlfriend is a doctor, and tells me stories about when she had recently qualified, and working silly hours.

It seems crazy that a high responsibility job like that, where peoples lives depend on it, and it is expected to be done by sleep deprived junior doctors.

She is Mexican, but as far as I can tell it is not restricted to that country.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#127

Post by collyw » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 2:01 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #75

joelrunyon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "deserves" This word always makes me coil. Everytime I hear it - I assume someone is trying to sell me something.

New, from Labor Union! WEEKENDS! Two whole days off from work every week! You buying yet?

Us Europeans think your 10 days of holidays (vaccinations) a year is crazy in the US. But then you do seem to get paid a lot better in the tech sector.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#128

Post by throwaway092834 » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 2:20 PM UTC

dev_jim wrote: post #125

"Working for free" after 40 hours never resonated with me. It comes out of hard fought labor battles, but an assembly line is difficult to relate to when I'm eating free snacks in my comfy Aeron chair and working on things that generally interest me. I think the biggest issue here is misaligned expectations between boss and worker. Personally, I've always gone into a job understanding what it was going to take to be…

I agree with your overall perspective.

I'd like to add that the statement "If you’re salaried, you’re working for free" is inaccurate in two very important dimensions:

1) Equity stake. The 40 hour workweek was invented for laborers, not owners. Would the author admonish a business owner to only work 8 hours a week? At what level of ownership stake does it become acceptable to work more than 8 hours?

2) Compensation increase through recognition and achievement. Working extra hours may not increase one's immediate paycheck but after many years in this business I feel comfortable saying that consistent hard work generally results in rather substantially increased compensation and opportunity in the long term.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#129

Post by lnanek2 » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 2:21 PM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #60

Well said. Most of the points can be derived from the first one ("You are working for free"), much in the way that most of Mechanical Engineering can be derived from F=MA. Once you take that idea on board, the motivations behind companies, managers, clients, etc. creating a culture of "Heros That Work Long Hours" become rather transparent. Adding "long hours don't actually mean you get more stuff done" into the mix i…

The thing is most early startup employees dip heavily into the equity/options side of the compensation. So they aren't working for free, they are working to make their equity share worth more by helping the company succeed.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#130

Post by a8da6b0c91d » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 2:29 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #72

rjurney wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A driving commute makes you unhappy because it is exhausting, and you lose that time. It sounds like your commute is on transit, which isn't so bad... you can read, so that time is still yours. I'd love an hour transit commute. I like to read!

A few years back I changed from a 1 hour drive (with completely unpredictable queues and delays) to get to work to a very pleasant 25 minute walk - which I love. The only problem is that having got used to this I'd be very reluctant to take a job that I could walk or cycle to - which is a bit limiting.

I had a half hour walk to work for a couple years and I was always shredded. I exercise regularly anyway, but with that easy daily hour of walking my body fat stayed super low without any real deliberate effort.