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Time to end the war against saturated fat?

latimes.com

21–30 of 67 posts

Re: Time to end the war against saturated fat?

#21
I think it is well established that you are better off with saturated fat and cholesterol heavy foods if it means no longer being obese. Since compliance with any diet is so important, it probably is healthier for people in general to not worry about saturated fat and worry more about sugars and carbs and keeping weight in check. But that doesn't mean saturated fat in your diet is an ideal you should aim for.

I'm partial to this explanation:

http://www.mprize.org/blogs/archives/2010/01/hi_dr_feinman_a...

>What I think we're seeing is exactly the divergence within these populations that you know: that carb is really rather bad for overweight, insulin-sensitive people, such that replacing it even with SFA is relatively harmless -- whereas for lean, insulin-sensitive people, SFA (and dietary cholesterol, its fellow-traveller in omnivorous diets) is likely more relatively harmful, because carb is less able to derange the metabolism. We have to remember that any time we look at these studies and see only modest or borderline-significant effects: 66% of the US population is overweight, and half of that majority is obeese; Europe is somewhat better-off, at 49.8% and 13.3% in men and 36.0 & 13.5% in women per MONICA. So the deleterious effects of any nutrient with a differential effect on low-BMI, insulin-sensitive people will tend to be blunted by the much larger number of people for whom such effects are blunted by their "larger" problem.

>It also means that the deleterious effects of a rise in SFA intake are at least temporarily outweighed if it is is part of a dietary shift into a lower-carb diet when it is successfully used for weight loss (as opposed to just being a person's self-selected default diet, which of course is what's going on in teh studies in Jakobsen and in the Swedish, Greek, and US Nurses low-carb/high-protein studies). But it's reasonably clear that if you're insulin-sensitive -- which, interestingly, is what one is likely to become after losing weight on a successful low-carb weight-loss diet! -- the effects of SFA become more relatively harmful as teh deleterious effects of carb recede.

>t the end of the day, we have to go with what we've got. Until we get a couple of thousand healthy twenty-year-olds locked up in metabolic wards for sixty years or so for a really vigorous diet trial, I think saturated fat AND carbs (especially starchy carbs) stand out as things to reduce in the diet, in exchange for vegetables, fruit, lean protein, and PUFA (and probably MUFA) as things to maintain or increase. And most people should lose weight!

Re: Time to end the war against saturated fat?

#22

It's several decades past due. Robert Lustig, quoted in the article, gave a fantasticly informative talk which hit youtube a few years back, which explains the folly of the low-fat diet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

Seems like Lustig's point is that a high-fructose diet is worse for you than a high-fat diet. We have replaced the fat in our diet with fructose, but that isn't necessary. We could just eat carbs low in fructose and/or more protein instead of fat. Regardless, this article is discussing saturated fat, which is a subset of all fats. "Healthy" oils like olive oil, canola oil, and many nuts have lots of fat, but very lit…

But why do you believe you should minimize fat, saturated or otherwise, is bad for you, and that carbs (low in fructose) are better?

See e.g. http://blog.sethroberts.net/2013/10/25/saturated-fat-and-hea... for a different perspective (including some references)

Re: Time to end the war against saturated fat?

#23

This is anecdotal, but I've now lost 20 kg with a ketogenic diet. Started at 110 kg, I now weigh 90 kg after 5 months. I've complemented the diet with a regular amount of exercise (mostly running). If anyone is interested, http://www.reddit.com/r/keto has a nice community of ketoers.

Do you think that since minority opinions tend to foster a community around then, this also biases people toward minority opinions?

ketogenic diets have been shown to help a variety of conditions, obesity on one hand, and epilepsy on the other (although, as far as I know, the mechanism is unknown)

Re: Time to end the war against saturated fat?

#24

It's several decades past due. Robert Lustig, quoted in the article, gave a fantasticly informative talk which hit youtube a few years back, which explains the folly of the low-fat diet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

Seems like Lustig's point is that a high-fructose diet is worse for you than a high-fat diet. We have replaced the fat in our diet with fructose, but that isn't necessary. We could just eat carbs low in fructose and/or more protein instead of fat. Regardless, this article is discussing saturated fat, which is a subset of all fats. "Healthy" oils like olive oil, canola oil, and many nuts have lots of fat, but very lit…

You gloss over the salient points in Lustig's presentation:

- A calorie is NOT a calorie.

- Fructose is a toxin; Liver hepatic fructose metabolism is completely different from glucose.

- A high-fructose diet IS a high-fat diet, due to how fructose is metabolized.

- The focus on saturated fats gave way to the low-fat diet, which is really a high-carbohydrate diet, which in fact raised incidents of cardiovascular disease, and increased the US's over all consumption of sugar.

- Lastly, the effort in the 1970s to try and control volatile food prices has yielded the cheap availability of sugar and high-fructose corn syrup, and that has in turn adulterated the food supply in the US and other countries, where sugar is in practically every sort of food product.

These are congruent with the points raised in the latimes article. No good, and quite a lot of harm, has come from the focus on saturated fat, and the continued assumption that a calorie is just a calorie.

The science is there, but public opinion and public policy are all still stuck in the past.

Re: Time to end the war against saturated fat?

#25
post #16
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congrats. Just like a determined programmer will do well with any language/platform, determined individuals will realize their health goals regardless of which fad diet they are currently utilizing.

As long as the fad diet isn't too crazy. (You won't lose weight on a caloric surplus, for example.)

Is your statement true? Why should it be a forgone conclusion that our bodies are able to convert all macronutrients into energy with 100% efficiency? If you maintain a stable weight for 1 year does this mean you managed to perfectly balance caloric intake with caloric expenditure? That when you ate that extra cookie or drank an extra soda that you needed those calories to offset some energy expenditure? That seems hard to believe.

One interesting question that I do not know the answer to is the kinetics of metabolism for different macronutrients. How quickly can our bodies metabolize fat, protein, and carbohydrates? Is it possible that our bodies convert carbohydrates into energy very quickly, thus leading to an excess of energy that gets stored as fat? While other nutrients get digested much more slowly and only used if needed?

The basic question is do all ingested calories get used? Does the body have a mechanism for maintaining a certain "ideal" weight that can function across a range of caloric intakes?

Re: Time to end the war against saturated fat?

#26
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are probably thousands of articles on the topic. I'd there any reason we shouldn't just accept the opinion of the FDA or AMA

The same reason you should not accept the TSA's opinion on security, or the FED's opinion on economics, or the DEA's opinion on marijuana, or the NSA's opinion on information security, or the SEC's opinion on market manipulation. They are not working for you; while they try to avoid uprising, and that often does correlate with what is good for you - they generally care more about the profits/benefits to themselves/su…

or the IPCC's opinion on global warming...

Re: Time to end the war against saturated fat?

#27
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the fad diet isn't too crazy. (You won't lose weight on a caloric surplus, for example.)

Is your statement true? Why should it be a forgone conclusion that our bodies are able to convert all macronutrients into energy with 100% efficiency? If you maintain a stable weight for 1 year does this mean you managed to perfectly balance caloric intake with caloric expenditure? That when you ate that extra cookie or drank an extra soda that you needed those calories to offset some energy expenditure? That seems h…

One trivial stabilizing mechanism is that more bodymass needs more power even at rest. So if you were perfectly balanced now with your current diet and current weight, and added the same snack every day, the only change would be a slight one time gain in weight.

Different foods make you eat more or less, by eg filling you up faster or keeper you satiated (and satisfied) for shorter or longer. So if you want to test your hypothesis, you'd have to carefully control for these effects, in order to rule out that caloric input is king. (I.e. my null hypothesis here is that caloric input is what counts in the end, but different foods have an influence on how many calories you actually consume.)

Anyway, the caloric surplus was just a simple example. Perhaps a clearer example would have been `trying to gain weight through fasting'.

Re: Time to end the war against saturated fat?

#28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like Lustig's point is that a high-fructose diet is worse for you than a high-fat diet. We have replaced the fat in our diet with fructose, but that isn't necessary. We could just eat carbs low in fructose and/or more protein instead of fat. Regardless, this article is discussing saturated fat, which is a subset of all fats. "Healthy" oils like olive oil, canola oil, and many nuts have lots of fat, but very lit…

But why do you believe you should minimize fat, saturated or otherwise, is bad for you, and that carbs (low in fructose) are better? See e.g. http://blog.sethroberts.net/2013/10/25/saturated-fat-and-hea... for a different perspective (including some references)

I said, "We have replaced the fat in our diet with fructose, but that isn't necessary. We could just eat carbs low in fructose and/or more protein instead of fat." Could, not should. I personally consume a lot of fat, probably more than most, usually in the form of nuts and some oils. I keep my refined sugar / carb intake to a minimum, and not because some article or organization tells me to, but rather because eating a diet full of refined sugars / carbs makes me feel lousy.

Re: Time to end the war against saturated fat?

#29
post #26
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same reason you should not accept the TSA's opinion on security, or the FED's opinion on economics, or the DEA's opinion on marijuana, or the NSA's opinion on information security, or the SEC's opinion on market manipulation. They are not working for you; while they try to avoid uprising, and that often does correlate with what is good for you - they generally care more about the profits/benefits to themselves/su…

or the IPCC's opinion on global warming...

I haven't been following them recently, perhaps they are a little more dependable now - but in the late 80s they had reports saying a lot of coastal cities will be flooded by 2000 if we don't do anything. We didn't do anything. Nothing happened - but in 2008 I looked and those early reports mysteriously disappeared.

Yes, climate does change, for sure, and it's probably bad - but so many of the climate scientists were wrong in their predictions from 30 years ago, that they need to do more to be convincing with their predictions for 30 years from now. And the data crunching they are doing, every time I looked at it, is not convincing.

Re: Time to end the war against saturated fat?

#30
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that since minority opinions tend to foster a community around then, this also biases people toward minority opinions?

ketogenic diets have been shown to help a variety of conditions, obesity on one hand, and epilepsy on the other (although, as far as I know, the mechanism is unknown)

It's interesting how much diet affects people.

There's also a diet for Autism/ADHD/.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-free,_casein-free_diet

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