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Angular Announces AngularDart

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Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#141

Post by pjmlp »

spankalee wrote: post #133
Helianthus wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a bit of a chicken-egg problem with a project choosing Dart, in that Dart has to already be ubiquitous for it to even be an option. What is the pathway for Dart adoption? Google puts it in Chrome. Sure. Dart programmers get to deploy to the Chrome browser, so they do some fun side projects and they run on Chrome only. Fine. Show me how Dart can then move to every browser on every device. Then show me how what…

> What is the pathway for Dart adoption? dart2js: https://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart-up-and-running/contents/c...

How is that different from all the other languages out there that transpile to JavaScript?

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#142

Post by pcwalton »

rdtsc wrote: post #99
nateabele wrote: post #2

Sigh ... I knew this was going to happen. :-/ This is part of Google's strategy to push Dart in the browser. Soon they're going to start developing Angular primarily in Dart, and 'back-porting' features to JavaScript. Sadly, this is the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google.

> Sigh... I knew this was going to happen. :-/ Yay... I was hoping this would happen :-) > This is part of Google's strategy to push Dart in the browser. I know, great, right. > Sadly, this is the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google. I criticize Google often but yeah this is great. Good for Google. It is more than what Oracle or Microsoft or others do. My opinion is this -- JS is a shitty language. It was a s…

> It is even better if it gets bypassed altogether.

That won't happen. With the amount of JavaScript on the Web, JS is immortal. All you can do is to add another language alongside it.

> There were other posts here about JS's warts, so I am not the only one who welcome any other sane, normal, language to replace it.

But it won't be replaced.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#143

Post by pcwalton »

rdtsc wrote: post #130
golergka wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A Dart to JS compiler will never be "decent" compared to having the Dart VM in the browser. I'm new to javascript & dart, so honest question here: why?

Don't listen to the hate and vitriol. Dart has a nice IDE, good clean types and language design. People are upset because they jumped on the wrong band-wagon and now something shiner and newer came around so they are not the cool hipsters anymore. Kind of like in the kindergarten the kid with the shiny new bike is boasting then some other kid gets the later, better, shinier model, the first gets upset and throws a ta…

> Dart has a nice IDE, good clean types and language design.

I have a serious problem with Dart's design: the type system is deliberately unsound around generics because the designers apparently think that supporting variance (which is not that difficult!) is worse than having types tell the truth. I would much rather there be no type system at all than there to be an unsound one, as I don't think compilers and IDE's should lie to you.

I think that's a mistake that the new language of the Web should not make, but Google seems unwilling to change it. Unlike JavaScript's warts, which be worked around for the most part, I don't see any way to fix a flaw that serious in the type system once Dart is stable.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#144

Post by mythz »

Helianthus wrote: post #118
rdtsc wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am flocking to Dart. Just because there are handful of "developers" yelling and spitting at everyone here doesn't mean others don't like Dart or are not learning it. They just don't yell and spit in everyone's face about so it makes it seems like "OMG nobody uses Dart, please shut it down". Dart is a great language, I like it. It has consistent typing rules, very fast, has a good IDE. I for one, would like to thank…

One rdtsc does not make a flock :P But I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment in language design. I don't even really have any problem with Angular.dart. We can always use another language that transpiles down to javascript. People are free to use what they want. (Unfortunately, my understanding is the dart2js process is horrifically inefficient, but that's no skin off my nose.) I will, however, drive ho…

IMO Dart is the most productive language for general purpose programming I've ever used, and so do many of the other ~3,300 members of the Dartisans community: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/11456694329191923285...

I'm personally happy that there's still hope we have a future option for a re-invented language optimized for web development rather relying on the glacial pace of continually patching JS to make it more maintainable.

It's a small yet powerfully expressive language that's easy to learn, it's very well thought-out and balanced providing greater consistency in both language and library behavior which is a nice contrast to the dump of incompatible JS fx's, it's optional typing adds a lot less friction and is a lot more productive that statically-typed langs, but also provides time-saving compiler feedback alerting errors as you type. It's support for source-maps are best-in-class whilst Dartium provides strong tool-ability and debug support and very fast live-reload cycles. Dart is an awesome option even without considering it's ~10x faster start-up times with Snapshots or its fast run-time performance which sees it can solve the Norvig's top95 Sudoku grids 200x times faster than Ruby: https://github.com/dartist/sudoku_solver#side-by-side-result...

Dart's not perfect and there are some language features I wish it had but over-all I think it's a magnitude better option than vanilla JS. It currently has less momentum than JS, but I hope to see that change as a JS-only future ensures web development will be forever stuck in the middle-ages.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#145

Post by namnamnam »

oscargrouch wrote: post #108
cpprototypes wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the ECMAScript committee would just take typing ideas from TypeScript, stamp ECMAScript 6.1 on it, and approve it as standard, JavaScript could become an amazing language.

Are you listening Brendan Eich? Not only that, implement it right away in the JS engines.. Javascript must move faster, because even that people are being forced to like it(because they dont have anywhere to hide); everything has limits.. everybody knows that we cant go on with the javascript the way it is right know and pretends everything its just fine and its all roses and unicorns.. Im trying to create something…

The sad thing is, the ES.next committee is more busy with shenanigans like macro meta-programming, which will hurt JavaScript even more, than with fixing the basics and getting this out as soon as possible.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#146

Post by afsina »

pjmlp wrote: post #141
spankalee wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the pathway for Dart adoption? dart2js: https://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart-up-and-running/contents/c...

How is that different from all the other languages out there that transpile to JavaScript?

Dart's one advantage is very fast development cycle if you use Dart VM in Dartium. No js compilation needed. Very well designed user APIs, Excellent modularity (with pub) and good editor support eliminates many opponents.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#147

Post by discreteevent »

pcwalton wrote: post #143
rdtsc wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't listen to the hate and vitriol. Dart has a nice IDE, good clean types and language design. People are upset because they jumped on the wrong band-wagon and now something shiner and newer came around so they are not the cool hipsters anymore. Kind of like in the kindergarten the kid with the shiny new bike is boasting then some other kid gets the later, better, shinier model, the first gets upset and throws a ta…

> Dart has a nice IDE, good clean types and language design. I have a serious problem with Dart's design: the type system is deliberately unsound around generics because the designers apparently think that supporting variance (which is not that difficult!) is worse than having types tell the truth . I would much rather there be no type system at all than there to be an unsound one, as I don't think compilers and IDE'…

I don't understand this. Dart is a dynamic language that gives you the option of adding types that help with tooling, documentation and some type checking at design time. At run time you can run it in checked mode and it will always tell the truth. This means that if you cover your code at all, manually or automatically then it will inform you of type errors. If you don't cover your code before releasing it then you probably are not writing anything very serious anyway. How is this worse than a dynamic language that offers you no optional typing with full checking at runtime?

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#148

Post by antihero »

cletus wrote: post #61

I'm really starting to get tired of the cynical and snarky negativity on HN. Whoever thinks this is part of some grand plan to force Dart down our throats clearly has no clue whatsoever about how Google works. Standard disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer and these opinions are my own and don't reflect those of my employer. Google is a really large company with >10,000 engineers. A lot of what we do starts as grassroots…

I think the issue is that conspiracy theories are a natural thing when there has been a significant damage in trust - when Google killed Reader, a much loved product, and other stuff such as closing random accounts with no recourse, they hurt the trust of their developer following. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, etc. The more Google does to act like a cold business as opposed to the nostalgic developer friendly company, they become feared and resented. This is an immeasurably difficult thing to fix.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#149

Post by antihero »

spankalee wrote: post #76
Helianthus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might not be a formalized 'grand plan,' but Dart doesn't have the open, cheerful intentions of CoffeeScript. It's being designed as a javascript replacement. Google's overbearing intention is obvious. You're right: Dart is, functionally, another CoffeeScript, but that's despite Google's plan--ok, 'experiment'--not by design. >So, please, can we discuss this on its merits Your criticisms are shared. That's what…

What are "open, cheerful intentions"? Open? Dart has been open-sourced for 2 years now - only having its proof-of-concept done in-house before the announcement. Cheerful? Not sure how one language that compiles to JS is more "cheerful" than an other, but we're really a cheerful bunch in person. I'm sure you could have a beer with us if you'd like :) As to the your and the OP's point about Dart being another CoffeeScr…

How much percentage of the dart team/steering committee are Google employees? If that number is higher than, say, 50%, then that is a liability because Google as a company's intentions are unpredictable, because whether the people working on it are good guys or not (and I'm sure you are), there's a common entity that has power over you (your employer) and to some degree your work.
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