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Angular Announces AngularDart

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Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#101

Post by Helianthus »

spankalee wrote: post #94
Helianthus wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... I was talking ecosystem niche and I think that obvious. Both languages have to compile to javascript to run in the browser, and it's going to stay that way. You might not be involved enough in the politics of programmer mindshare, but plainly: Dart is attempting a takeover. Takeovers can be smiles and open source, but they're still takeovers, and this one is doomed to fail. If you don't see that, you're focused o…

No one is forcing anyone to use Dart, anymore than people are forced to use CoffeeScript, Haxe or pyjamas. Many engineers at Google want a sane alternative to JavaScript, and we think it'll save thousands of hours of developer time, millions of developer dollars, and also _user_ time and money as they benefit from more stable apps with more features. JavaScript is not going anyway. If developers flock to Dart, presum…

I'm aware of JS language angst, yes.

Developers aren't flocking to Dart. Many are resentful of it.

You can ignore the resentment and the reasoning behind it if you want, but that won't make Dart more reasonable or beneficial.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#102

Post by cpprototypes »

cletus wrote: post #61

I'm really starting to get tired of the cynical and snarky negativity on HN. Whoever thinks this is part of some grand plan to force Dart down our throats clearly has no clue whatsoever about how Google works. Standard disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer and these opinions are my own and don't reflect those of my employer. Google is a really large company with >10,000 engineers. A lot of what we do starts as grassroots…

If the ECMAScript committee would just take typing ideas from TypeScript, stamp ECMAScript 6.1 on it, and approve it as standard, JavaScript could become an amazing language.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#103

Post by rdtsc »

WoodenChair wrote: post #40

If you don't like Dart, don't use it. Nobody is taking away your AngularJS. Google has a right to promote whatever language it thinks will give it a competitive advantage. You have a right to be revolted by it. However, the hyperbole surrounding anything that even remotely, several years down the line, may threaten the monopoly of JavaScript on the client side web is ridiculous. Language competition is good - it ulti…

> Personally, I think there are a lot of people deeply invested in Javascript who fear anything that even remotely, one day in the super future, may threaten their skill set.

Pretty much, I think a large swathe of people who jumped on the Angular JS platform are quite fond of just that -- jumping on the latest technology. They've evangelized for it, knocked on peoples' doors Saturday mornings, wanted to tell them about the great new wonderful framework that will save the world. And now the fear is not that Angular JS will go way. It won't. It will be there sitting on Github accepting pull requests, forks will appear and so on. They fear that there will be something else, newer out there and they will be stuck with 2012 technology. They will be hipsters who are still drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon while all other cooler hipsters are drinking Tecate already.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#104

Post by rdtsc »

polux wrote: post #63
cletus wrote: post #61

I'm really starting to get tired of the cynical and snarky negativity on HN. Whoever thinks this is part of some grand plan to force Dart down our throats clearly has no clue whatsoever about how Google works. Standard disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer and these opinions are my own and don't reflect those of my employer. Google is a really large company with >10,000 engineers. A lot of what we do starts as grassroots…

Google engineer here too. I completely agree with the fast edit/refresh cycle being a huge plus but that's precisely what Dartium (the build of Chromium that includes the Dart VM and ships with the Dart editor) is for.

As a Dart learner, thank you. Dart IDE is great. It has some rough edges, it is new, but I like that the IDE is developed along the language and the VM. It make a difference.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#105

Post by rdtsc »

Helianthus wrote: post #67
cletus wrote: post #61

I'm really starting to get tired of the cynical and snarky negativity on HN. Whoever thinks this is part of some grand plan to force Dart down our throats clearly has no clue whatsoever about how Google works. Standard disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer and these opinions are my own and don't reflect those of my employer. Google is a really large company with >10,000 engineers. A lot of what we do starts as grassroots…

There might not be a formalized 'grand plan,' but Dart doesn't have the open, cheerful intentions of CoffeeScript. It's being designed as a javascript replacement. Google's overbearing intention is obvious. You're right: Dart is, functionally, another CoffeeScript, but that's despite Google's plan--ok, 'experiment'--not by design. >So, please, can we discuss this on its merits Your criticisms are shared. That's what…

> Google's overbearing intention is obvious.

Please.

> That's what causes the friction: resentment that a pretty flawed language is being pushed.

"flawed language" you mean [] + [] doesn't equal '' ?

Oh look it throws a "TypeError: Object # has no method '$add'", yes please bring more such flawed languages around Google, I love them!

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#106

Post by jgon »

steveklabnik wrote: post #95
jgon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here we are 2 years later, TC39 is still nowhere in sight, Javascript is still, in the eyes of anyone with an ounce of taste, a terrible language for large scale development and Dart continues to iterate while offering all of it's advancements as it compiles to JS. I honestly don't even care if Dart doesn't take off, maybe clojurescript or something similar will instead. But my god something needs to happen in th…

> TC39 is nowhere in sight Uhhhh TC39 meets bi-monthly. If you meant ECMASCRIPT 6, it's targeting finalization next month. Furthermore, future releases are set to be much, much faster than previous ones.

Yes I meant the standard produced by TC39, of which Ecmascript 6 is the new version. My apologies for loose use of terminology.

I would be somewhat happy if ES6 was finalized next month, but if it slipped (again) I would not be surprised. You'll also have to forgive me if I am skeptical of claims about the increased speed of future standards. The burden is on TC39 to prove this to me and I reserve the right be skeptical based on prior evidence until I see otherwise.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#107

Post by btford »

xixixao wrote: post #92
spankalee wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are "open, cheerful intentions"? Open? Dart has been open-sourced for 2 years now - only having its proof-of-concept done in-house before the announcement. Cheerful? Not sure how one language that compiles to JS is more "cheerful" than an other, but we're really a cheerful bunch in person. I'm sure you could have a beer with us if you'd like :) As to the your and the OP's point about Dart being another CoffeeScr…

There is one major difference between Dart and CoffeeScript: The Angular team didn't have to take a 3 month holiday to make Angular work with CoffeeScript. If Dart was just another compile-to-JS language, then they wouldn't have to bother at all. Yet, CoffeeScript is not just a different syntax - for one, it changes declarations and scoping rules. That's a pretty big semantic change (comparison operators etc. follow)…

Please show me this 3 month break AngularJS took in the Github activity log: https://github.com/angular/angular.js/pulse

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#108

Post by oscargrouch »

cpprototypes wrote: post #102
cletus wrote: post #61

I'm really starting to get tired of the cynical and snarky negativity on HN. Whoever thinks this is part of some grand plan to force Dart down our throats clearly has no clue whatsoever about how Google works. Standard disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer and these opinions are my own and don't reflect those of my employer. Google is a really large company with >10,000 engineers. A lot of what we do starts as grassroots…

If the ECMAScript committee would just take typing ideas from TypeScript, stamp ECMAScript 6.1 on it, and approve it as standard, JavaScript could become an amazing language.

Are you listening Brendan Eich?

Not only that, implement it right away in the JS engines..

Javascript must move faster, because even that people are being forced to like it(because they dont have anywhere to hide); everything has limits.. everybody knows that we cant go on with the javascript the way it is right know and pretends everything its just fine and its all roses and unicorns..

Im trying to create something new here that will need an embedded VM, and deciding between JS, Lua or Dart is just killing me.. if that was an option, and the next javascript was just something like typescript.. this would be a easy decision

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#109

Post by detst »

Helianthus wrote: post #101
spankalee wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forcing anyone to use Dart, anymore than people are forced to use CoffeeScript, Haxe or pyjamas. Many engineers at Google want a sane alternative to JavaScript, and we think it'll save thousands of hours of developer time, millions of developer dollars, and also _user_ time and money as they benefit from more stable apps with more features. JavaScript is not going anyway. If developers flock to Dart, presum…

I'm aware of JS language angst, yes. Developers aren't flocking to Dart. Many are resentful of it. You can ignore the resentment and the reasoning behind it if you want, but that won't make Dart more reasonable or beneficial.

> reasoning behind it

In all of your condescending[1] comments, you have forgotten to actually articulate what your reasoning is. These are as close as you got:

  Dart doesn't have the open, cheerful intentions

  Google's overbearing intention is obvious

  flawed language

  this one is doomed to fail

  forced down our throat
[1] I'll Identify these on request. They're unwarranted, counter-productive and rude.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#110

Post by rdtsc »

Helianthus wrote: post #101
spankalee wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forcing anyone to use Dart, anymore than people are forced to use CoffeeScript, Haxe or pyjamas. Many engineers at Google want a sane alternative to JavaScript, and we think it'll save thousands of hours of developer time, millions of developer dollars, and also _user_ time and money as they benefit from more stable apps with more features. JavaScript is not going anyway. If developers flock to Dart, presum…

I'm aware of JS language angst, yes. Developers aren't flocking to Dart. Many are resentful of it. You can ignore the resentment and the reasoning behind it if you want, but that won't make Dart more reasonable or beneficial.

I am flocking to Dart. Just because there are handful of "developers" yelling and spitting at everyone here doesn't mean others don't like Dart or are not learning it. They just don't yell and spit in everyone's face about so it makes it seems like "OMG nobody uses Dart, please shut it down".

Dart is a great language, I like it. It has consistent typing rules, very fast, has a good IDE. I for one, would like to thank Google for working on it and open sourcing it.

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