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Angular Announces AngularDart

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Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#61
I'm really starting to get tired of the cynical and snarky negativity on HN.

Whoever thinks this is part of some grand plan to force Dart down our throats clearly has no clue whatsoever about how Google works.

Standard disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer and these opinions are my own and don't reflect those of my employer.

Google is a really large company with >10,000 engineers. A lot of what we do starts as grassroots efforts. Honestly, getting 10,000 engineers to act in a coordinated fashion is probably like trying to herd 10,000 cats.

AngularJS started as a side project that became Google-sponsored and it grew organically. Being Google-sponsored simply means some team somewhere has dedicated some engineers to working on it. That's it.

Likewise a group of engineers separately started Dart due to dissatisfaction with JavaScript being the lingua franca of the Web. The idea was that Dart can be implemented as a VM within a browser and get faster performance that way. Likewise, it should compile to JavaScript for browsers that don't support Dart in the browser (which is all of them except Chrome). Also, Dart shares a lot of the philosophies of GWT in sharing code between client and server.

Now my personal view is that I honestly don't see the point of Dart. I mean no disrespect to the team or their efforts but I don't agree with the premise or the design philosophy of Dart.

Optional typing seems to me to combine the worst of both worlds. If typing is useful (as the static typers will argue) then be statically typed. If it's not be dynamically typed. Dart's type system is basically just the Closure JsDoc system used by the Closure compiler. That's it. To me, there's no real innovation there.

Dart is really just another Coffeescript and I don't see the point of Coffeescript either.

One of the benefits of development in JavaScript is you can simply refresh your browser and it just works. I'm a huge fan of this fast iteration cycle in development. It's the same reason I'm a fan of Python, Ruby and even PHP.

Additionally, as soon as you add a translation step from something to JavaScript, you introduce potential bugs in that translation (eg I've seen bugs with the Closure compiler incorrectly removed code it thought was dead and that was JS to JS let alone the issues with, say, GWT's Java to JS). Even if there aren't bugs, tracing issues back to the source becomes more difficult.

Rob Pike through Go seems to believe this too (not that I claim to speak for him) because he's repeatedly mentioned that the simple syntax of Go and fast compilation is a deliberate feature, a philosophy I agree with 100%. It's also one reason I detest C++: slow compilation kills productivity (IMHO).

So AngularDart is nothing more than another group of engineers (perhaps there's a crossover with the Dart folks) wants a modern Web framework for client-side Dart so they created one.

The idea that this is part of some grand strategy is quite frankly ludicrous.

Google puts their effort behind a lot of experimental projects. Some work out, many don't. Will Dart succeed? I don't presume to know. But while I don't agree with the premise/philosophy it makes me happy that the company I work for is still prepared to experiment with such efforts and devote resources to them.

If you work at Google you'll often see three teams working on roughly the same thing, typically without knowing about the existence of the others. They may consolidate or compete (if they have incompatible philosophies that the teams feel strongly about) or something in between.

This happens because so many efforts just start out as a single engineer or a small group of engineers just trying something out or they want to solve a problem they see (and in an organization this large it's rare you're the only one who sees a particular problem and wants to do something about it).

So, please, can we discuss this on its merits rather than the new norm of seeing vast conspiracies or simply seeing things as some collusion with the NSA. It's really tiresome.

EDIT: added a paragraph about the issues of bugs and translating something to javaScript.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#62

If you don't like Dart, don't use it. Nobody is taking away your AngularJS. Google has a right to promote whatever language it thinks will give it a competitive advantage. You have a right to be revolted by it. However, the hyperbole surrounding anything that even remotely, several years down the line, may threaten the monopoly of JavaScript on the client side web is ridiculous. Language competition is good - it ulti…

Just because it can't be forced down our throat doesn't mean it's not uncomfortable that Google's trying.

When did Google try to force Dart down your throat? Just because Angular is being ported to Dart? Seriously? Are you saying that Dart developers don't deserve Angular?

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#63
post #61

I'm really starting to get tired of the cynical and snarky negativity on HN. Whoever thinks this is part of some grand plan to force Dart down our throats clearly has no clue whatsoever about how Google works. Standard disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer and these opinions are my own and don't reflect those of my employer. Google is a really large company with >10,000 engineers. A lot of what we do starts as grassroots…

Google engineer here too. I completely agree with the fast edit/refresh cycle being a huge plus but that's precisely what Dartium (the build of Chromium that includes the Dart VM and ships with the Dart editor) is for.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#64
post #29
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Secondly, Google is a big company and some teams within it wanted to use Dart, whereas otheres want to use vanila javascript and Angular, so now you have both. Specifically who?

A number of the members of the Chrome team. If you watch the announcement from when Blink hit, they did some developer talks. When asked about the integration of Dart into Chrome, it was fairly obvious that some of the guys didn't want Dart in there [0]. But at the same time, a high-level direction is being set to try and get Dart added. Google employs a LOT of developers. A lot of those developers feel the same way…

Except Google has its own plateform ( ChromeOS ) that has its own eco system. Native Client doesnt work outside Chrome yet it exists. Google will push Dart VM is Chrome sooner or later.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#65

Sigh ... I knew this was going to happen. :-/ This is part of Google's strategy to push Dart in the browser. Soon they're going to start developing Angular primarily in Dart, and 'back-porting' features to JavaScript. Sadly, this is the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google.

> the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google

I don't understand why did you put "Open Source" in quotes there.

Did Google take Angular of the internet? Did they not put AngularJS out to the world, open sourced? Did they forbid you from forking Angular, working on it, and create a refuge for all "abandoned" developers?

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#66
post #23
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I will never use Dart" That's quite a sure statement. Why don't you think Dart will ever be natively adopted by Firefox at some point in the future?

BrendenEich said this of Dart, 2 years ago on HN, and might help explain OP's sentiment: For the record, I'm not worried about JS being replaced by a better language. I am working to do that within Ecma TC39, by evolving JS aggressively. The leaked Google doc's assertion that this is impossible and that a "clean break" is required to make significant improvements is nonsense, a thin rationale for going it alone rathe…

> A Dart to JS compiler will never be "decent" compared to having the Dart VM in the browser.

I'm new to javascript & dart, so honest question here: why?

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#67
post #61

I'm really starting to get tired of the cynical and snarky negativity on HN. Whoever thinks this is part of some grand plan to force Dart down our throats clearly has no clue whatsoever about how Google works. Standard disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer and these opinions are my own and don't reflect those of my employer. Google is a really large company with >10,000 engineers. A lot of what we do starts as grassroots…

There might not be a formalized 'grand plan,' but Dart doesn't have the open, cheerful intentions of CoffeeScript.

It's being designed as a javascript replacement. Google's overbearing intention is obvious.

You're right: Dart is, functionally, another CoffeeScript, but that's despite Google's plan--ok, 'experiment'--not by design.

>So, please, can we discuss this on its merits

Your criticisms are shared. That's what causes the friction: resentment that a pretty flawed language is being pushed. Dart does take time away from other more worthwhile projects.

None of the cynicism is over wishing that Google would stop experimenting with technology, it's over Google's waste of time.

Edit: Actually, apparently there might be a formalized 'grand plan,' reading nateabele.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, "You have a right to be revolted by it." But, I think it would probably be a better use of your time to be uncomfortable over things like hunger and disease than a company trying to promote a new programming language to further its self interest - that's what companies do.

You have a right to be revolted by peoples' revulsion, which you are presently executing quite well. I don't have a problem with that, I just think you're loudly complaining about how loud everyone is. ;)

Actually you're right, that's exactly what I'm doing. It's like when people are loudly talking in a library and you loudly go "shushhhh!"

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you are using the latest version? Angular was an early user of mirrors (reflection) which (more or less) disabled the tree-shaking of dart2js. This was recently improved. Tracking the size of AngularDart: https://github.com/jbdeboer/angular-dart-js-size

Maybe I'm missing something, but yes, I think so. Dart version 0.8.10.3_r29803. pubspec.yaml: name: test1 dependencies: browser: any angular: git: https://github.com/angular/angular.dart.git test1.dart: import 'package:angular/angular.dart'; main() => ngBootstrap(); dart2js launch => builds test1.dart.js, about 5MB, 142,749 loc.

Yes. You need to add a @MirrorsUsed annotation in your main.dart file. See https://github.com/jbdeboer/angular-dart-js-size/blob/master... for our current best practices.

You should get ~173KB gzipped, minified dart2js output.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#70
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it can't be forced down our throat doesn't mean it's not uncomfortable that Google's trying.

When did Google try to force Dart down your throat? Just because Angular is being ported to Dart? Seriously? Are you saying that Dart developers don't deserve Angular?

Way I see it, no one deserves the misfortune of Angular. ;)
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