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Angular Announces AngularDart

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Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#131

Post by rdtsc »

jgon wrote: post #90
wamatt wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BrendenEich said this of Dart, 2 years ago on HN, and might help explain OP's sentiment: For the record, I'm not worried about JS being replaced by a better language. I am working to do that within Ecma TC39, by evolving JS aggressively. The leaked Google doc's assertion that this is impossible and that a "clean break" is required to make significant improvements is nonsense, a thin rationale for going it alone rathe…

And here we are 2 years later, TC39 is still nowhere in sight, Javascript is still, in the eyes of anyone with an ounce of taste, a terrible language for large scale development and Dart continues to iterate while offering all of it's advancements as it compiles to JS. I honestly don't even care if Dart doesn't take off, maybe clojurescript or something similar will instead. But my god something needs to happen in th…

I am kind of in this camp as well. I understand there is nothing much now to replace js on the client (kind of like js as an assembler language so stuff compiled to it), but I am ready for something better. But also, it is 2013, []+[] should stop being equal to ''.

Also think if anything or anyone is going to make a change it would have to be Google. Can't image a small company out there coming up with a new browser with a new language. It would have to come in Firefox or Chrome. So I am excited for Dart.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#132

Post by Helianthus »

spankalee wrote: post #128
Helianthus wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point was to compare compile-to-javascript languages.

Uh, GWT is a Java-to-JS compiler. On that note, Java has 508,338 questions on StackOverflow, which crushes CoffeeScript, /especially/ with those 15,000 GWT questions ;)

Oh, interesting. Is it really a standalone transpiler or is it a set of tools?

As someone else pointed out, SO isn't a great metric, but finding github activity by language seemed to take more time than I was willing to invest.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#133

Post by spankalee »

Helianthus wrote: post #125
rdtsc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will, however, drive home the point that Dart cannot out-compete CoffeeScript or TypeScript; How are you driving it home besides just repeating it without any other supporting statements? Saying something 3 times doesn't make it truer. > Dart will not replace javascript and will not be the native language of the web Still don't get why it wouldn't. What is qualitatively different about DartVM vs v8. It could be 2…

There's a bit of a chicken-egg problem with a project choosing Dart, in that Dart has to already be ubiquitous for it to even be an option. What is the pathway for Dart adoption? Google puts it in Chrome. Sure. Dart programmers get to deploy to the Chrome browser, so they do some fun side projects and they run on Chrome only. Fine. Show me how Dart can then move to every browser on every device. Then show me how what…

> What is the pathway for Dart adoption?

dart2js: https://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart-up-and-running/contents/c...

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#134

Post by spankalee »

Helianthus wrote: post #132
spankalee wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, GWT is a Java-to-JS compiler. On that note, Java has 508,338 questions on StackOverflow, which crushes CoffeeScript, /especially/ with those 15,000 GWT questions ;)

Oh, interesting. Is it really a standalone transpiler or is it a set of tools? As someone else pointed out, SO isn't a great metric, but finding github activity by language seemed to take more time than I was willing to invest.

No metric will be great right now because Dart is so new compared to CoffeeScript. CoffeeScript 1.0 was released 3 years ago. Give us a chance to get 1.0 out the door :)

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#135

Post by detst »

Helianthus wrote: post #120
detst wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reasoning behind it In all of your condescending[1] comments, you have forgotten to actually articulate what your reasoning is. These are as close as you got: Dart doesn't have the open, cheerful intentions Google's overbearing intention is obvious flawed language this one is doomed to fail forced down our throat [1] I'll Identify these on request. They're unwarranted, counter-productive and rude.

Oh, why not? I wouldn't mind watching a highlight reel and you seem so gleeful . --- I think my reasoning throughout this page has been more or less articulated, but I suppose I might try for a compact representation. What exactly do you think is going to happen with Dart? Is Google going to add Dart to every Chrome install? Sure, maybe. Will so many developers cry out that Safari and IE will also be forced to implem…

You claimed that Dart is a flawed language. Substantiate that claim. Basic stuff here. If you can't, I must assume you're a troll or have no clue yet somehow think you do.

> Do you think Dart is that amazing? Do you think Dart is just so wonderful that it'll unite the programming world as never before?

The world isn't black and white. Dart doesn't have to be perfect to be a viable alternative to JS.

> Even Google's pet framework is divided and recoiling.

No, they both thrive and benefit from the other. It is a feature. The same thing is happening with Polymer.

> Why Dart?

Take a cursory look and you'll find some arguments for Dart but I would think you would have covered this before having such a strong opinion.

> Google is trying to shove Dart down our throats

Said multiple times. Substantiate please.

> fall off the radar when it's clear that it doesn't transpile to js very well. The alternative is a fantasy.

So you know more about dart2js capabilities than the creators of V8 and Dart? This is the condescending and arrogant attitude I spoke of.

https://www.dartlang.org/performance/

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#136

Post by lennel »

eknkc wrote: post #14
andyl wrote: post #9

I'm using AngularJS. But this Dart news is a dark cloud. I will never use Dart, or anything that locks me into Google's walled garden. I view Dart as a major negative. Hello Ember.

Ember is a "no" for me beacuse of explicit getters and setters. Angular's Object.observe like digest mechanism is superior.

observe is so slow however, not matter which way you do it.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#137

Post by domenicd »

jgon wrote: post #106
steveklabnik wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TC39 is nowhere in sight Uhhhh TC39 meets bi-monthly. If you meant ECMASCRIPT 6, it's targeting finalization next month. Furthermore, future releases are set to be much, much faster than previous ones.

Yes I meant the standard produced by TC39, of which Ecmascript 6 is the new version. My apologies for loose use of terminology. I would be somewhat happy if ES6 was finalized next month, but if it slipped (again) I would not be surprised. You'll also have to forgive me if I am skeptical of claims about the increased speed of future standards. The burden is on TC39 to prove this to me and I reserve the right be skepti…

ES6 features are already shipping in many browsers. http://kangax.github.io/es5-compat-table/es6/

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#138

Post by lennel »

floitsch wrote: post #46
Max_Horstmann wrote: post #35

I like both Angular and Dart, so that's good news. One thing I noticed though: transpiling a .dart file with just the import statement for AngularDart (import 'package:angular/angular.dart') generates a non-minified 5MB .js file with almost 150 kloc. Every code change will create a new version of it, invalidating previously cached versions. :/

Are you sure you are using the latest version? Angular was an early user of mirrors (reflection) which (more or less) disabled the tree-shaking of dart2js. This was recently improved. Tracking the size of AngularDart: https://github.com/jbdeboer/angular-dart-js-size

So are you using that the full tree shaking algo works with angular now?

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#139

Post by mda »

discreteevent wrote: post #82
polux wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google engineer here too. I completely agree with the fast edit/refresh cycle being a huge plus but that's precisely what Dartium (the build of Chromium that includes the Dart VM and ships with the Dart editor) is for.

Yes, developer workflow is one of the key points I think anyone who has looked at the Dart documentation would get. Or, better yet, even try using the language for five minutes.

"Or, better yet, even try using the language for five minutes."

But this is HN, it is easier to rant about how evil Dart Wader will destroy the beautiful Javascriptalderaan.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#140

Post by pjmlp »

spankalee wrote: post #56
pjmlp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To piles of JavaScript, you mean. As well as, forcing developers to infer the way Dart compiler generates JavaScript code, in the absence of source maps. I rather use JavaScript, thank you.

dart2js generates source maps

You need browser support for them.
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