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South Korea is stuck with Internet Explorer for online shopping

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Re: South Korea is stuck with Internet Explorer for online shopping

#51
post #27
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citation needed. Any real economist. Inevitably, if any industry is profitable, competition will arise. Government regulation (often through corruption) is the only mechanism which ensures a lack of competition. This can be observed in any industry throughout the last 100 years. You're right that companies can lock up the vast majority of a market by out-competing others, but this generally doesn't last very long (…

This is flatly incorrect. 1) Property. If you have a monopoly on the property in a given area you can charge whatever you want for rent, and no competition will be around to add competition. 2) Vertical monopolies. If your company buys out not just the competition, but the entire supply chain, and there is a high cost of entry to being able to enter the market -- say automobiles -- then you can quash competition as i…

> 1) Property. If you have a monopoly on the property in a given area you can charge whatever you want for rent, and no competition will be around to add competition.

Then people can move elsewhere. People won't tolerate it forever. This can be seen in the real estate market in the city I live in. Several downtown blocks in prime locations have a single owner. She charged outrageous rents, and now half of these (prime) locations are empty, and new businesses have cropped up in the neighborhoods around the downtown core.

> 2) Vertical monopolies. If your company buys out not just the competition, but the entire supply chain, and there is a high cost of entry to being able to enter the market -- say automobiles -- then you can quash competition as it arises.

While this is possible in theory, it hasn't happened in a free market.

> 3) Coal mines. If the only job you can get is in a coal mine, and the operator of said mine owns all the mines in your geographic region, you don't have much of a choice. This is especially true if you are working 12+ hours a day 7 days a week for a pittance, or are a minor child.

I live in a country where people will travel 4000 KM for a job. People will move if they perceive economic conditions to be unfavourable. If enough people do this, the mine owner will be forced to raise wages or face a shortage of labour.

> 4) This is libertarian fantasy and rightfully deserves the scorn and ridicule it has so far received in this thread.

Only Americans would make an accusation of political bias in a discussion such as this, using such terms (libertarian).

Fact is, the study of economics is the same whether you're in a market economy or a controlled economy (and likewise whether you vote right, left, or centre). And most economies are mixed BTW.

Re: South Korea is stuck with Internet Explorer for online shopping

#52
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citation needed. Any real economist. Inevitably, if any industry is profitable, competition will arise. Government regulation (often through corruption) is the only mechanism which ensures a lack of competition. This can be observed in any industry throughout the last 100 years. You're right that companies can lock up the vast majority of a market by out-competing others, but this generally doesn't last very long (…

> Inevitably, if any industry is profitable, competition will arise. An industry can be profitable for the existing market participants and still have a high enough cost of entry as to have a negative expected profit over any meaningful timeframe for a prospective new entrant. In practice, this is likely to change due to changing external conditions (e.g., technological progress that lowers the cost of entry or creat…

> but there is no theoretical reason why this must be the case.

Yet it has always turned out to be the case anyway...

Even in the world of offshore drilling (which probably has a higher cost of entry than any other business you could possibly enter) there are tons of start-ups, joint ventures, etc... Of course, the oil business is also very susceptible to corruption, but wherever land rights are auctioned fairly, you see good competition.

Re: South Korea is stuck with Internet Explorer for online shopping

#53
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any real economist. Any real economist can cite many monoplies that arise through market forces alone. > Inevitably, if any industry is profitable, competition will arise. This is not true. There are many different definitions of "profit", and there are many cases where an industry that makes a real business profit will not support a competitor that makes an economic profit. The obvious example is markets with very…

> He became dominant through backroom deals and anti-competitive practices. Backroom deals AKA corruption. Corruption and regulation are two sides of the same coin. Had the market been perfectly competitive (ie. state governments not succumbing to corruption) the monopoly likely would not have formed and lasted. Your only example merely proves my point. Try to find a monopoly that has arisen in an open market, free f…

It's clear from your response that you didn't read the cited link.

> Backroom deals AKA corruption. Corruption and regulation are two sides of the same coin.

You seem to labor under some obtuse notion that the state governments were the subject of the backroom deals. Let me dispel that for you, by quoting from the article cited that you apparently couldn't be bothered to read:

> In a seminal deal, in 1868, the Lake Shore Railroad, a part of the New York Central, gave Rockefeller's firm a going rate of one cent a gallon or forty-two cents a barrel, an effective 71 percent discount from its listed rates in return for a promise to ship at least 60 carloads of oil daily and to handle the loading and unloading on its own

> Rebates, preferences, and other discriminatory practices in favor of the combination by railroad companies; restraint and monopolization by control of pipe lines, and unfair practices against competing pipe lines; contracts with competitors in restraint of trade; unfair methods of competition, such as local price cutting at the points where necessary to suppress competition; [and] espionage of the business of competitors, the operation of bogus independent companies, and payment of rebates on oil, with the like intent.

> The general result of the investigation has been to disclose the existence of numerous and flagrant discriminations by the railroads in behalf of the Standard Oil Co. and its affiliated corporations. With comparatively few exceptions, mainly of other large concerns in California, the Standard has been the sole beneficiary of such discriminations. In almost every section of the country that company has been found to enjoy some unfair advantages over its competitors, and some of these discriminations affect enormous areas.

> Almost everywhere the rates from the shipping points used exclusively, or almost exclusively, by the Standard are relatively lower than the rates from the shipping points of its competitors. Rates have been made low to let the Standard into markets, or they have been made high to keep its competitors out of markets. Trifling differences in distances are made an excuse for large differences in rates favorable to the Standard Oil Co., while large differences in distances are ignored where they are against the Standard. Sometimes connecting roads prorate on oil—that is, make through rates which are lower than the combination of local rates; sometimes they refuse to prorate; but in either case the result of their policy is to favor the Standard Oil Co. Different methods are used in different places and under different conditions, but the net result is that from Maine to California the general arrangement of open rates on petroleum oil is such as to give the Standard an unreasonable advantage over its competitors

> The evidence is, in fact, absolutely conclusive that the Standard Oil Co. charges altogether excessive prices where it meets no competition, and particularly where there is little likelihood of competitors entering the field, and that, on the other hand, where competition is active, it frequently cuts prices to a point which leaves even the Standard little or no profit, and which more often leaves no profit to the competitor, whose costs are ordinarily somewhat higher

Note that the word "government" appears nowhere in any of these allegations. All of these backroom deals existed with other market participants.

If you redefine "corruption" to mean "not involving the government whatsoever" then your points are indeed true, but you are then proving the exact opposite of your initial assertion that "only governments can create monopolies".

Anyway, it's not clear if you're a troll or ignorant at this point, and I doubt that further effort to dispel your quaint notions will be worth my invested time.

Re: South Korea is stuck with Internet Explorer for online shopping

#54
post #19

Typical of most MS bashing articles - this article is troll-bait at best and false at worst. Internet Explorer is not mandated by law. What happened was, the US had banned export of 128bit encryption software. The Korean government said screw that and created browser plugins - for BOTH Netscape and IE - to use 128bit encryption for online transactions. Netscape died and IE remained. I guess their implementation is pr…

The 128-bit export restriction ended 13 years ago, so the use of the home-grown encryption standard has been a choice made by the Korean government and corporations. Yes, the export restrictions were stupid, but there has been plenty of time to switch over.

NPAPI is supported in most browsers, so the SEED implementation had to have been pretty tied to Netscape Navigator/Communicator implementation as it existed pre-Firefox

If the government implementations are the de facto standards and the Korean government has only maintained an ActiveX version for the last 10 years, I can't see how you can interpret it as anything other than an IE mandate.

Re: South Korea is stuck with Internet Explorer for online shopping

#55
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It isn't strange, most monopolies are born out of bad government policies, not the market. Citation needed. There are government mandated monopolies but you can also achieve a monopoly using purely free market tools and simply lock up all supply and/or distribution via aggressive investments. You seem to imply government-induced monopolies > free market monopolies, but provide no evidence or even an argument that t…

> Citation needed. Any real economist. Inevitably, if any industry is profitable, competition will arise. Government regulation (often through corruption) is the only mechanism which ensures a lack of competition. This can be observed in any industry throughout the last 100 years. You're right that companies can lock up the vast majority of a market by out-competing others, but this generally doesn't last very long (…

Ask five economists a question, and you'll get six answers.

Anyone who pretends that economists agree on anything is not worth taking seriously.

Re: South Korea is stuck with Internet Explorer for online shopping

#56
post #19

Typical of most MS bashing articles - this article is troll-bait at best and false at worst. Internet Explorer is not mandated by law. What happened was, the US had banned export of 128bit encryption software. The Korean government said screw that and created browser plugins - for BOTH Netscape and IE - to use 128bit encryption for online transactions. Netscape died and IE remained. I guess their implementation is pr…

The article is generally correct. Until 2010, all e-commerce had to use the SEED protocol (which is only implemented via an ActiveX control after Netscape fell), by law. Which means Internet Explorer.

Yes, it originated in the days when SSL was 40-bits, and yes there was once a Netscape plugin. However the world changed, and for the next decade the law remained the same. The spirit of the article is absolutely correct, despite minor discrepencies: Long after far superior alternatives were available, the law mandated the use of Internet Explorer, which is an inertia that carries the country today.

Re: South Korea is stuck with Internet Explorer for online shopping

#57
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consider the fact that if you refuse to do business with a private-sector monopoly the worst that'll happen is that you'll get a slightly less-effective alternative or in the worst case go without the good. That can be pretty bad if the "good" you are going without is food, shelter, a necessary medical procedure, or some other fundamental requirement.

That's true, of course. But while I'm no history buff the main examples I can think of regarding monopolies of these commodities have always been government-induced (war-time rations, communist food lines, etc.). Am I missing examples of when a private company in a functional capitalist system forced the population at large to buy their food from them? There might be examples with crony capitalism, but in the end tha…

I think I agree with the main thrust of your arguments, but can you point at an existing capitalist system that is not in many respects "crony" capitalism? (Switzerland, maybe? I've heard good things about them.)

I suspect we need a new term for what we want. "Capitalism" is too sullied by use.

Re: South Korea is stuck with Internet Explorer for online shopping

#58
"But the back-and-forth was technologically complicated, and it came with a catch: It required a piece of additional software, or “plugin,” known as ActiveX — which is also made by Microsoft and worked in tandem only with Internet Explorer."

That phrasing made me cringe and shows the lack of technical understanding of the author of this article. ActiveX is a technology, not a piece of software or a plugin in itself.

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