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Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

blog.mibbit.com

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Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#111

Post by abstractbill »

ankhmoop wrote: post #109
simonw wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a project developer (Django + other things), IRC has been blocked at my last two places of work and I've often used mibbit, which I found to be an excellent client - better than many desktop clients in fact. Please consider this a complaint.

Then if the Django IRC channel has banned Mibbit, I suggest you speak with them -- assuming Freenode decides that expending volunteer services to support a commercial service is a worthwhile venture. Otherwise, there's the freenode web IRC interface.

You just said you would pay attention if someone "with a genuine stake in the project community complained". And then someone did, and you brushed him off.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#112

Post by abstractbill »

ankhmoop wrote: post #31
davidw wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I thought when mirc came out;-) People who didn't know how to use ircII were generally not as cool. You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad.

You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad. I agree, but IRC is different and arguably antiquated technology. It doesn't require registration, operates in real-time, has no concept of reputation or community moderation. It's difficult to manage, and services that accidentally facilitate abuse make it more…

It doesn't require registration

More accurately, the protocol doesn't say anything about registration. It's dead simple to implement some form of registration outside of the IRC protocol, and then only allow registered users to connect.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#113

Post by ankhmoop »

abstractbill wrote: post #111
ankhmoop wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then if the Django IRC channel has banned Mibbit, I suggest you speak with them -- assuming Freenode decides that expending volunteer services to support a commercial service is a worthwhile venture. Otherwise, there's the freenode web IRC interface.

You just said you would pay attention if someone "with a genuine stake in the project community complained". And then someone did, and you brushed him off.

"Our channels". As I've said before, we've been forced to regularly ban Mibbit on our channels (as in, software projects with which I am involved). I simply don't represent freenode, or django, or web developers in general.

[edit]

I see Mibbit fans are downvoting any negative comments en masse, not to mention the vitriolic dialog with freenode staffers on IRC. Yeesh.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#114

Post by ankhmoop »

abstractbill wrote: post #112
ankhmoop wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad. I agree, but IRC is different and arguably antiquated technology. It doesn't require registration, operates in real-time, has no concept of reputation or community moderation. It's difficult to manage, and services that accidentally facilitate abuse make it more…

It doesn't require registration More accurately, the protocol doesn't say anything about registration. It's dead simple to implement some form of registration outside of the IRC protocol, and then only allow registered users to connect.

Yes, which is not something that many communities on freenode are particularly interested in doing.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#115

Post by axod »

sho wrote: post #82
abstractbill wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...it would allow Mibbit to readily spoof basic user identity. What conceivable reason would Mibbit have for doing that? Mibbit must be trusted to ... not allow proxy connections No, that's not true. Mibbit must be trusted merely to pass-on the correct IP. Then Freenode's existing proxy detection can handle the job of rejecting proxied connections. You are publicly calling into question Mibbit's integrity here, and s…

"You are publicly calling into question Mibbit's integrity here" I know nothing about Mibbit beyond their web page and their colourful representative here, but - it's not about the personal integrity of the founder, or whatever. Mibbit's whole business model is around advertising. The more page views, the more advertising, the more profit. They have no investment in any other metric. It is reasonable to assume Mibbit…

Incentive or not, some of us have integrity and honor and choose to play by the rules of what is right. Not what makes the most money.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#116

Post by axod »

sho wrote: post #53
abstractbill wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client. Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat…

Well, I don't really know all the details behind Mibbit's implementation. Interesting that they pass on the IP. But the problem would then be that people can then use any of a number of proxies, etc, to get around that - Mibbit certainly does not have any incentive to block proxies, it's interested only in ad views. So it seems there would be a conflict of interest between Mibbit, interested in maximising users, and…

>> Mibbit certainly does not have any incentive to block proxies, it's interested only in ad views.

Mibbit blocks all known web proxies, tor, etc and has done for a long time. You really do think the worst of everyone don't you. I wonder what that says about you? :/

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#117

Post by axod »

ankhmoop wrote: post #101
Jem wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? I have no problem with basic aptitude tests. I have no problem with restricting a community to the technically literate. What I have a problem with is the assumption that anyone choosing to use X over Y is some kind of moron.

Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? No, simply that as an initial barrier to entry for a technical community, "browsing to a web page" isn't very difficult and serves poorly as a first-pass filter.

You should block email from webmail clients. I hear they're very easy to use.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#118

Post by menloparkbum »

axod wrote: post #116
sho wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I don't really know all the details behind Mibbit's implementation. Interesting that they pass on the IP. But the problem would then be that people can then use any of a number of proxies, etc, to get around that - Mibbit certainly does not have any incentive to block proxies, it's interested only in ad views. So it seems there would be a conflict of interest between Mibbit, interested in maximising users, and…

>> Mibbit certainly does not have any incentive to block proxies, it's interested only in ad views. Mibbit blocks all known web proxies, tor, etc and has done for a long time. You really do think the worst of everyone don't you. I wonder what that says about you? :/

You really do think the worst of everyone don't you. I wonder what that says about you? :/

That he's either Danish or Australian?

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#119

Post by Zev »

axod wrote: post #62

This is a sad thing in terms of Freenode, and users trying to access it from Mibbit, but will not affect Mibbit as such. I remember using Freenode early on when I discovered open source. It was a fantastic vibrant place with hackers all over the place. openprojects, lilo, great... Unfortunately, maybe it's got too big. The atmosphere has changed for the worse IMHO. In my opinion, the staff no longer represent the com…

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you completely and stand beside Freenode's decision.

As someone who is an ircop on another network with a few thousand users that also blocks Mibbit, abuse is not a red herring at all.

The last time Mibbit was unbanned on the network, it was used repeatedly for users to evade channel bans and harass users. Implementing a non-standard protocol that only Mibbit seems to use is not a valid answer to this problem.

IMHO, its a sad day when a single, relatively new client (that displays ads/produces income for), feels that it is important enough for a network that has been around much longer to bend its policy to work around. And then have the gall to accuse the network of wanting to make a profit itself?

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#120

Post by axod »

ankhmoop wrote: post #114
abstractbill wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't require registration More accurately, the protocol doesn't say anything about registration. It's dead simple to implement some form of registration outside of the IRC protocol, and then only allow registered users to connect.

Yes, which is not something that many communities on freenode are particularly interested in doing.

Channels were free to block mibbit, or require that users be identified to join the channel.

In any event, this was never about Mibbit being used for abuse. It's about Freenodes own agenda.

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