Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#471

Post by 37prime » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 9:10 PM UTC

niuzeta wrote: post #455

alextingle wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. If I read the article, and then dismiss the content simply because it was written by Rob Enderle, then that's ad hominem . On the other hand if I notice the article is written by well-known-fool Rob Enderle and don't bother reading it, then that's just good time management.

Would you mind expanding on Rob Erderle? I've heard not nice retorts on him but not quite some details and would like a few pointers.

Look these up, I'm not going to link to Rob Enderle's posts.

- Why Steve Ballmer's Early Retirement Is My Own Greatest Failure

- Apple Didn't Beat Microsoft, Robbie Bach Did: Apple's Secret 5th Column.

- The Dell Mini 5 vs. the Apple iPad

Note for the last headline: "Rob Enderle, an industry analyst whom Dell hired to consult on the new entertainment strategy, said he is still discussing with Dell whether profits would come mainly from the subscription service or from devices tied to it." http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:exd_wDD...

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#472

Post by lmm » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 9:14 PM UTC

pg wrote: post #61

It's a little early to say for sure, but I predict this will do more to hurt Apple's reputation in the tech community than anything they've done before. And that is not a good community to alienate. I would not be surprised if they look back on this move one day and feel that they ended up net worse off as a result. Apple used to be careful not to alienate hackers. And Microsoft has been gradually digging itself out…

Apple has been hostile to hackers for my entire lifetime. From suing makers of mac-compatible hardware, through refusing to license their iPod DRM to other sellers, and the unprecedented closedness of the iPhone walled garden, to the ludicrous design patent lawsuit against Samsung. They've always been the enemy of anyone who was paying attention, and this latest move is no worse than what they've done before. I'd like to believe the tech community will turn against them, but the history just doesn't support this.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#473

Post by 6thSigma » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 9:19 PM UTC

37prime wrote: post #470

6thSigma wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-20090552-17/apple-sues-mot...

Apparently you didn't get the timeline correctly. Motorola sued Apple over some FRAND SEP back in 2010. The judgement came down in 2011 in favor of Motorola. http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/06/motorola-suing-apple-for-... In addition to that, you're quoting Don Reisinger?

Either way, the quarrels between Apple and Motorola started far before Google bought them.

I don't even know who Don Reisinger is. I googled it and linked the first result.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#474

Post by belorn » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 9:23 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #247

cromwellian wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Google wanted a platform that prevented Microsoft and Apple from completely controlling and owning the onramp to the mobile web with two dominant proprietary operating systems that prevent third party software installs without approval, a huge huge reduction in freedom even comparing it to Microsoft in the 90s. And in that regard, they did the world a favor, regardless of whether it was selfish or altruistic. It…

Not to go all meme on you, but let me FTFY: Google wanted a platform that prevented Microsoft and Apple from beating them to control of the next big advertising platform. Nothing more, nothing less. "Open" has been shown conclusively to take a back seat to monetization. It is as much a marketing tactic (in the sense that it's useful to promote the platform, but can and will be discarded, with spin to explain why, whe…

Given the context of this discussion, it must be mentioned that LLVM license do not include a patent grant. Apple has patented several frontends of LLVM, and is likely to have several patents on the core parts of LLVM. Apple could do a oracle at any time.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#475

Post by gutnor » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 9:23 PM UTC

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #403

Datsundere wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't blame the patent system. While it is true that patent system should be reformed/eliminated, those companies chose to take advantage of it. Just because you can steal something when nobody is looking doesn't mean it's justified to be stolen.

> They chose to take advantage of it. What would they do, just let Google acquire even more mobile-related patents? You think Google would never sue them? Let's not be naive, the only reason Google is a good citizen with patents today is because a retaliation would make a dent on them, and they know it. The parent is right, the problem is the patent system, which gives a disproportional power to the holder and create…

The problem here is rather that Google chose not to participate in the company buying the patents.

What do you do after that. Leave the companies that didn't pay alone ?

There used to be a time where companies would have been doing just that. But in mobile market, there is no competition anymore, there is a very rough war. 2 market leader (Nokia, Blackberry) have basically been pushed out of the market in less than 5 years. That's like incredible speed ( I work in financial software company, it takes decades of continuous bad strategy to doom a company ). Their error of judgement was all considered minor and the correction they have done should have been more than enough to limit the losses. In addition of that, only 2 players on the market manage to make money, a lot of money.

In that climate, anything that can give you even a few months edge can be the difference between competing and becoming irrelevant.

The smartphone market is brutal - too brutal for regular competition strategies.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#476

Post by Malician » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 9:26 PM UTC

aroch wrote: post #365

air wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty clear when you read things like http://googleblog.blogspot.fi/2011/08/when-patents-attack-an...

I don't think it's pretty obvious when you cite the blog for a company involved. Google's been fairly cavalier in infringing some patents (Regardless of whether their good patents, Google knew they were infringing). It should also be noted that the biggest Android player apart from Google, Samsung, has taken to suing aggressively.

I understand you to be arguing that it is not clear that Google would, if given the choice, drop all patent litigation (sued and suing), and Apple would not?

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#477

Post by rst » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 9:43 PM UTC

WildUtah wrote: post #297

linuxhansl wrote: post #131

Somebody please show me a single patent on software or a so called business-process that is worth anything (i.e. not obvious to somebody skilled in the art). Just one... I'll shut up then. Patents were supposed to encourage innovation, now they are doing the opposite (at least for software and business processes) and causing billions of wasted dollars and fat bonuses for patent lawyers. This move seems a bit desperat…

Just one good non-obvious software patent? US Pat #4,200,770 Diffie Hellman public key exchange There are literally dozens, maybe hundreds of good software patents out of the 500,000 or so that have been issued. We'd all be much better off without any software patents at all but it's not true that they are all fraudulent and abusive like the ones in these lawsuits. A small fraction are decent. Of course the innovatio…

Also, in the same sphere, RSA.

But the rationale for the patent system is to encourage innovation that wouldn't have happened without it, and it isn't clear that either of the public-key crypto patents qualifies. In each case, the inventors included academics (Hellman was on Stanford's faculty) whose job is to innovate and disclose their own innovations. (And while it's common these days for academics to patent and try to monetize at the same time, that wasn't always so. It was rarer, and sometimes controversial, in the 1970s.)

The RSA patent made R, S, and A very rich --- but it isn't clear what it did for the rest of us.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#478

Post by bradleyjg » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 9:45 PM UTC

stock_toaster wrote: post #463

ajross wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the operative word in pg's reply is " ok ". That Apple, MS, et. al. are acting in their objective self interest (and to the detriment of all of ours!) is an important point. But it doesn't speak to the moral issue which is that such behavior needs to be condemned and not excused.

If the system incentivizes this behavior, can a publicly traded corporation even choose to ignore it? Would shareholders be able to claim breach of fiduciary duties if they did? Note: I am certainly not arguing that this is a good thing for anyone by any means at all.

> Would shareholders be able to claim breach of fiduciary duties if they did?

By claim, I suppose you mean sue over? In that case the answer is no. There's this notion that companies legally have to be run so as to maximize shareholder value, and there's some case law in Delaware to support that notion. But what overlooked is the context of those decisions. Invariably the litigation has to do with change of control or measures designed to encourage/discourage same. Outside of those contexts, the business judgment rule reigns supreme. So long as there's no self dealing and the company doesn't lie in its public statements, it is almost impossible for a shareholder to win a derivative breach of fiduciary duty case.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#479

Post by josephlord » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 11:07 PM UTC

I'm going to hold judgement until I understand the size of licensing fees being requested (and if there is a separate FRAND rate for any Standards Essential Patents).

Google bid $4.4Bn for this portfolio so they must have see value and/or danger in these patents. I disagree with the article's statement that "Google has plenty of patents" as this doesn't seem to the case in the current battles with Apple and Microsoft. The Motorola purchase doesn't seem to have helped much in this area either.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#480

Post by deathchill » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 11:27 PM UTC

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #224

pg wrote: post #61

It's a little early to say for sure, but I predict this will do more to hurt Apple's reputation in the tech community than anything they've done before. And that is not a good community to alienate. I would not be surprised if they look back on this move one day and feel that they ended up net worse off as a result. Apple used to be careful not to alienate hackers. And Microsoft has been gradually digging itself out…

This may be true, but let's not get fooled into thinking that because "they" are the enemy, Google must be our friend. Google is playing a very dubious game here, and it has nothing to do with being on "our" side of the patent issue. They've tried to buy the same patents, refused to participate in a joint effort to safeguard those patents for all, and then knowingly violated those patents. All through this, they've b…

Google was invited to join in the group with Apple, Microsoft and the others? Any links or anything I could check out? I tried googling but there's too much about this particular case to find anything useful! I was under the impression that they were never offered to join in.

Thanks!