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It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

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Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#301

Post by seanmcdirmid »

sanderjd wrote: post #296
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - The evidence seems to be that the bigger the government, the wider the gap between the rich and the poor. This might sound counter-intuitive, but that's the date we have. It sounds counterintuitive because it's absolutely unabashedly false. Nordic countries, whose governments are bigger than any, have greater equality than 3rd world African countries, where government is non existent. This is just more libercrazi…

You make a good point, but just so you know, when I see political put-down portmanteaus (politdownteaus?) like "libercrazian", "libtard", "randroid", etc., it immediately sets off my alarm bells for people who are operating on an us-vs-them instead of a reasoned-thinking basis. I doubt I'm the only one for whom a good argument seems weakened by this sort of silliness.

I want to distinguish between rational libertarians and the whacko ones that seem to hang out with them but throw rationality out the window. Basically, libertarian != libercrazian.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#302

Post by malyk »

AlisdairSH wrote: post #299
sharkweek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get be wrong, I don't think for a second that it wouldn't be a ridiculously exciting job -- I mean even the thought about having a government security clearance is a thrilling thought (even though I'm sure it's less cinematic than I might hope) -- I also completely buy the competition angle -- especially considering I'm not going to pretend that Google is the "good guy" here, fighting perilously for our freedom…

"...the thought about having a government security clearance is a thrilling thought" Meh. Nothing cinematic about it at all. You fill out reams of paperwork (address and neighbors back 10 years), get interviewed by a tired bureaucrat, and all your friends, family, and neighbors get grilled by some other tired bureaucrats. Then, if you're lucky, they grant you an interim clearance so you can start work while they do w…

And the chances of you actually seeing anything particularly interesting is pretty low.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#303

Post by ctoth »

nitrogen wrote: post #229
tptacek wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His entire point appears to be that an entire branch of discussion is out of bounds. If I'm trampling, consider it counter-trampling.

I'm beginning to see the PR value of having a clear, consistent message and sticking to it, which I believe may be the point to which your fellow commenter alludes. A willingness by one side of a debate to consider arguments that favor the other side could be perceived (or misrepresented) as weakness and counted in favor of the debating opponent.

You're eluding to http://lesswrong.com/lw/gw/politics_is_the_mindkiller/

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#304

Post by mindcrime »

duairc wrote: post #282
mindcrime wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, this is one reason I'm not actually a big fan of government and "democracy" at all... the "tyranny of the majority". Nonetheless, within the framework of what we are working with here, I think it's important that our government be very transparent, so that at least the option of holding the government accountable exists.

Maybe you are already well-read in this department, but you might like reading some anarchist critiques of different forms of democracy: In Defense of Anarchism by Robert Paul Wolff: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/robert-paul-wolff-in-... Democracy , by Monsieur Dupont: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/monsieur-dupont-democ... Democracy vs. Desire: Beyond the Politics of Measure , by Andy Robinson: http…

I have not read any of those three, so definitely thank you for sharing. FWIW, my individualist anarchist tendencies have largely been influenced by people like Lysander Spooner and Murray Rothbard.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#306

Post by freshhawk »

zaroth wrote: post #120
freshhawk wrote: post #100

I find it strange that the assumption is made that "Silicon Valley" is clearly going to be on the side of the general public in this. Why? Isn't the smart money going to side with the real power? If those well connected enough to attempt to predict things see the odds of the US rolling back the surveillance state to be low and the odds of the levels of surveillance growing then certainly brokering user data and devel…

> That they will lose customers because people demand privacy and will stop using their services if they cooperate. This hasn't happened yet... Apparently it's already decimating IBM hardware sales in China. http://www.testosteronepit.com/home/2013/10/17/nsa-revelatio...

That's a good point, companies selling to governments and large organizations will probably see a drop in business. Makes sense that those types of decisions will be affected.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#307

Post by [deleted] »

zaroth wrote: post #120
freshhawk wrote: post #100

I find it strange that the assumption is made that "Silicon Valley" is clearly going to be on the side of the general public in this. Why? Isn't the smart money going to side with the real power? If those well connected enough to attempt to predict things see the odds of the US rolling back the surveillance state to be low and the odds of the levels of surveillance growing then certainly brokering user data and devel…

> That they will lose customers because people demand privacy and will stop using their services if they cooperate. This hasn't happened yet... Apparently it's already decimating IBM hardware sales in China. http://www.testosteronepit.com/home/2013/10/17/nsa-revelatio...

[deleted]

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#308

Post by freshhawk »

ForHackernews wrote: post #113
freshhawk wrote: post #100

I find it strange that the assumption is made that "Silicon Valley" is clearly going to be on the side of the general public in this. Why? Isn't the smart money going to side with the real power? If those well connected enough to attempt to predict things see the odds of the US rolling back the surveillance state to be low and the odds of the levels of surveillance growing then certainly brokering user data and devel…

I think the argument is that Google and others stand to lose a great deal of business around the world if they're seen as a front for US government intelligence agencies. That gives them a real financial interest in opposing this kind of surveillance.

They are currently seen as a front internationally aren't they? Probably as much as they ever will be.

It'll have some effect but I'm not convinced that the lost business would pay for the fight necessary to change the circumstances. The fight would be hugely expensive, in cash and political capital and not likely to make a difference.

The best decision for the bottom line would be to put up a show of a fight and do "we're trustworthy" marketing while getting in on that sweet defense contractor money (especially when you are encouraged to cooperate and lie about it by the law) instead of actually changing things. This is what I see them doing, and I'm not convinced there is any reason for them to change.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#309

Post by [deleted] »

ForHackernews wrote: post #113
freshhawk wrote: post #100

I find it strange that the assumption is made that "Silicon Valley" is clearly going to be on the side of the general public in this. Why? Isn't the smart money going to side with the real power? If those well connected enough to attempt to predict things see the odds of the US rolling back the surveillance state to be low and the odds of the levels of surveillance growing then certainly brokering user data and devel…

I think the argument is that Google and others stand to lose a great deal of business around the world if they're seen as a front for US government intelligence agencies. That gives them a real financial interest in opposing this kind of surveillance.

[deleted]

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#310

Post by steveklabnik »

penguindev wrote: post #300
steveklabnik wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a number of things OWS was successful at: 1. re-igniting a national conversation about the nature of wealth and who has it and for what reasons. 2. Giving a large number of people who were isolated in their individual homes a space to come build some kind of community. 3. Several sub-organizations, such as Occupy Sandy and Strike Debt, have been incredibly successful in their niche. 4. A whole new generatio…

That sounds like a bureaucrats definition of success. "It's not about accomplishing real work, it's about the process, getting involved in the process, etc. etc." Seeing how wall st. is at all time highs using printed money, and the largest mega banks are still mega, it's a bit optimistic to call OWS a success. Don't get me wrong, I think it was a great effort... and I really like the 1%/99% coining... but perhaps it…

You are assuming that "destroy the banks" is the win condition. I'm saying that's not correct. It's a long game.
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