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It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

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Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#281

Post by eli_gottlieb »

abraxasz wrote: post #107
droopybuns wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the security community could have a discussion about whether it's time to start shaming people like TheGrugq. The people who are working for the NSA are people in the security community. You can see it in the phrasing on some of the material that's been release (WIN! stood out to me w/r/t one of the previously released docs regarding some MITM scenario). Obviously there are some very smart people in the communi…

"ask yourself if Charlie has ever had any ideals outside of looking out for number one." Problem is, if he doesn't, who will? I think that one thing that might have changed in our generation, is that we have the distinct impression that nobody has our back. I'm not saying that politics are more messed up than they used to be, it's just more blatant. Nobody gives a fuck that people are dying in the streets, that we're…

And my head tells me that if you think defecting on a Prisoner's Dilemma at the national scale is "smart", our civilization is dying.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#282

Post by duairc »

mindcrime wrote: post #183
tptacek wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by some horrible miracle --- a "horribilicle" --- we had upon us a series of public referenda on a Constitutional amendment enabling foreign intelligence services to ignore the 4th Amendment in the service of any reasonable pursuit of Islamic terrorists, how do you think "WE" would vote on it? I know how I'd vote ("fuck no"), but I don't think I could predict whether the amendment would pass. It's worth keeping in…

Right, this is one reason I'm not actually a big fan of government and "democracy" at all... the "tyranny of the majority". Nonetheless, within the framework of what we are working with here, I think it's important that our government be very transparent, so that at least the option of holding the government accountable exists.

Maybe you are already well-read in this department, but you might like reading some anarchist critiques of different forms of democracy:

In Defense of Anarchism by Robert Paul Wolff: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/robert-paul-wolff-in-...

Democracy, by Monsieur Dupont: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/monsieur-dupont-democ...

Democracy vs. Desire: Beyond the Politics of Measure, by Andy Robinson: http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/andy-robinson-democra...

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#283

Post by snitko »

nardi wrote: post #242
snitko wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you describe it as libertarian leanings ? What in the libertarian philosophy still makes you uncomfortable?

I can't answer for spenvo, but for myself, I would be happy to call myself "libertarian," except that extremely limited government is bad at protecting the poor from the rich, and libertarianism places a little too much emphasis on individualism to the detriment of communities.

How is it that the poor need protection from the rich? It seems to me, the most imminent danger to the poor is the government: it sends poor people, who don't have money for lawyers, to prison for victimless crimes; it violates their rights by spying on them, exercising unchecked force; it requires numerous expensive licences to start certain kinds of businesses poor people could start. Why would the poor need protection from the rich and from what kind of actions exactly?

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#284

Post by Thrymr »

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

I wouldn't underestimate the power of "just a paycheck". It does warp your world view when your livelihood depends on it, and you may not even realize by how much. Also, you are surrounded by others who believe what they are doing is right (whether a priory or similarly warped).

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" - Upton Sinclair

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#285

Post by abraxasz »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #281
abraxasz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"ask yourself if Charlie has ever had any ideals outside of looking out for number one." Problem is, if he doesn't, who will? I think that one thing that might have changed in our generation, is that we have the distinct impression that nobody has our back. I'm not saying that politics are more messed up than they used to be, it's just more blatant. Nobody gives a fuck that people are dying in the streets, that we're…

And my head tells me that if you think defecting on a Prisoner's Dilemma at the national scale is "smart", our civilization is dying.

I like the analogy with the prisoner's dilemma, although I think the situation is slightly different. It'd be like playing the game against someone who's repeatedly shown that he'll betray you whenever possible. The optimal strategy in that case is not cooperation.

As for the civilization is dying thing, I'm not prescient, so I can't give a clever answer. But even if it is so, that has no impact on what the optimal behavior is for someone purely selfish. Like good king Louis XV used to say, while bankrupting the kingdom of France: "After Me, the Flood".

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#286

Post by seanmcdirmid »

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #244
nardi wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't answer for spenvo, but for myself, I would be happy to call myself "libertarian," except that extremely limited government is bad at protecting the poor from the rich, and libertarianism places a little too much emphasis on individualism to the detriment of communities.

Two points: - The evidence seems to be that the bigger the government, the wider the gap between the rich and the poor. This might sound counter-intuitive, but that's the date we have. The rest is pure speculation. It could be that there is some hidden variable that makes the rich/poor gap and government grow at the same time, but it's not enough to just repeat some dogma; - I am for communities, but the only point o…

> - The evidence seems to be that the bigger the government, the wider the gap between the rich and the poor. This might sound counter-intuitive, but that's the date we have.

It sounds counterintuitive because it's absolutely unabashedly false. Nordic countries, whose governments are bigger than any, have greater equality than 3rd world African countries, where government is non existent.

This is just more libercrazian BS; the data that you have is completely whack, which is probably why you didn't bother to cite it.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#287

Post by seanot »

nardi wrote: post #242
snitko wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you describe it as libertarian leanings ? What in the libertarian philosophy still makes you uncomfortable?

I can't answer for spenvo, but for myself, I would be happy to call myself "libertarian," except that extremely limited government is bad at protecting the poor from the rich, and libertarianism places a little too much emphasis on individualism to the detriment of communities.

Can you cite your reference on extremely limited government being bad at protecting the poor from the rich? I'd be happy if you could just provide an example of extremely limited government. From what I've seen, government acts as enforcer for the rich.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#288

Post by justinschuh »

1031throwaway wrote: post #109
sharkweek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No condescension intended, I am honestly just more curious -- I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, mostly to just get their side of things. I totally agree that people have varying beliefs on this stuff and for some this might be just as noble as any other way of serving their country.

Read this guy's tweets: https://twitter.com/justinschuh I'm certainly not a fan of his ideology, but he gives an insight from someone who came from the NSA and is supportive of the executive branch's behavior.

I'm not surprised that I'm getting smeared by a sock puppet on HN, but I'll try to use it as a chance to clarify myself in more than 140 characters:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+JustinSchuh/posts/SiSd4T9fgXH

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#289

Post by Loughla »

X4 wrote: post #265
PeterisP wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you throw a bunch of mammals in a shared space, then generally a hierarchy and a 'ruling class' emerges. That is testable (and tested), and it is natural, literally, part of our nature. Now, wether it's unavoidable is a a different question, and wether its morally good is a yet different one; but it certainly is the natural order of things.

Orly, seriously? Find me the study that proves that for a group that is larger than a few million! Please just prove this point. It is sooo naive to just assume, "hey I saw 5 chick sand a hen, the hen ruled them, I think hundreds of millions of americans must be ruled by one hen too". Clever, clever... I am writing a scientific paper and just believe me (as you seem to believe easily, without proof) that Hierarchy is…

That statement said nothing about one person, but a ruling class. Look at every primate species. They all have a hierarchy of some fashion. Do you honestly believe that our ability to be really successful at breeding and exploiting the resources around us really make us exempt from natural selection?

Small group, large group, we're all monkeys.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#290

Post by aaronem »

X4 wrote: post #270
jlgaddis wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sabu, for example, would almost certainly not be granted a clearance, even at the classified (lowest) level.

How can he be an asset for the FBI then?

Fairly easily, I should think; since when does any police agency entrust its secrets to its confidential informants?
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