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Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

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Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#341

Post by zanny »

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #224
pg wrote: post #61

It's a little early to say for sure, but I predict this will do more to hurt Apple's reputation in the tech community than anything they've done before. And that is not a good community to alienate. I would not be surprised if they look back on this move one day and feel that they ended up net worse off as a result. Apple used to be careful not to alienate hackers. And Microsoft has been gradually digging itself out…

This may be true, but let's not get fooled into thinking that because "they" are the enemy, Google must be our friend. Google is playing a very dubious game here, and it has nothing to do with being on "our" side of the patent issue. They've tried to buy the same patents, refused to participate in a joint effort to safeguard those patents for all, and then knowingly violated those patents. All through this, they've b…

> then knowingly violated those patents

I can't compile hello world in any language without violating dozens of patents.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#342

Post by BenoitEssiambre »

This is nothing less than an attack on technology, innovation and engineering. They could try to compete by building better products and matching the level of openness of their competitor but they'd rather keep their platform closed so they can gouge their customers and use lawyers against anybody that doesn't.

We live in a world where inventors can't build anything that get's them noticed by large established competitors without risking frivolous patent lawsuits on obvious concepts.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#343

Post by eliasmacpherson »

IBM wrote: post #285
Thirsty wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Google clearly wanted to control these patents themselves so that they could extract licensing deals from others..." Has Google ever extracted licensing deals from others?

They've certainly tried to against Microsoft but they failed. Microsoft and Apple were required by the government to license their standards related patents under reasonable terms to anyone before this Nortel patent portfolio buy was cleared. As far as I know none of them are trying to sue over SEPs. I don't even think this lawsuit contains patents related to standards, but it's kind of a moot point because no compan…

I find your username amusing given the context of this thread. IBM could stand to make some money by licencing out some of their patents as they have done in the past:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/facebook/yahoo-was-licensing-paten...

http://news.yahoo.com/facebook-buys-patents-ibm-defend-itsel...

Incidentally if anyone is told their work is to be patented and will only be used in defense - bear the above behaviour in mind, over time, companies will not just use patents in defense.

Ha, it seems I'm a bit late to make that prediction - it's already happened.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-14/google-purchases-1-...

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#344

Post by air »

czr80 wrote: post #320
air wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forget that Apple has their own patent suits against Motorola that they are not dropping. Ending the fight would mean that both drop their patent suits. Seems to me that GoogleMotorola wants this and Apple doesn't.

What's your evidence for that claim?

I think it's pretty clear when you read things like

http://googleblog.blogspot.fi/2011/08/when-patents-attack-an...

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#345

Post by timrichard »

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #312
air wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think separating good guys and bad guys is pretty simple, if one is against (at least software) patents: Using patents aggressively makes you a bad guy. Google has not done this, Microsoft and Apple have.

But isn't the point being made that this is better not looked at as a good versus bad, it's better looked at as one sort of bad against another sort of bad. The fact that one of them is slightly better than the other in one regard doesn't change the fact that neither of them are really that worthy of your support. You're right that Google haven't been patent aggressors up until now but if recent behaviour teaches us…

"The fact that one of them is slightly better than the other in one regard doesn't change the fact that neither of them are really that worthy of your support"

Retaining them defensively isn't "slightly better". Using them offensively is significantly worse.

"You're right that Google haven't been patent aggressors up until now but if recent behaviour teaches us anything it's that Google have been very willing to change what they've stood for historically. If you believe that they'd never change that position if they felt it suited them then you have more faith in them than I do."

That just sounds like weak speculation to me. Patent fee extortion is the sort of thing you do if you have a gradually declining (Apple) or minimal (MS) market share.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#346

Post by cs702 »

pg wrote: post #61

It's a little early to say for sure, but I predict this will do more to hurt Apple's reputation in the tech community than anything they've done before. And that is not a good community to alienate. I would not be surprised if they look back on this move one day and feel that they ended up net worse off as a result. Apple used to be careful not to alienate hackers. And Microsoft has been gradually digging itself out…

I'm unhappy with Apple and Microsoft too, but the real enemy is a broken patent system that creates the perverse incentives that motivate companies to launch lawsuits like this one, to the detriment of society.

Regardless of who wins, we have already lost, because we have a patent system that discourages innovation and competition in software!

Maybe the prospect of patent Armageddon will finally force lawmakers to address the issue head on. I'm hopeful. As Winston Churchill supposedly said, "you can always count on Americans to do the right thing -- after they've tried everything else."

--

PS. I highly recommend Gary Reback's 2002 article, "Patently Absurd," which accurately depicts how patents are used by large corporations: http://www.forbes.com/asap/2002/0624/044_print.html

--

Edits: grammar and style; also, added PS and qualified quote with "supposedly," because it's unclear if Churchill ever actually said those words (thanks icebraining and drabiega for pointing that out).

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#347

Post by hershel »

Apocryphon wrote: post #134
haberman wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple threw down the gauntlet when they made it clear that their devices would be a walled garden where they would have absolute control over what apps you can run. Prior to Android, your choice was between your carrier overlords and the Apple overlord. Not only was that limiting for users, it was a vulnerability for Google business-wise to have their direct competitors as gatekeepers between their services and their…

But with Android, the choice is between your OEM overlords and the Google anti-fragmentation efforts overlord. Yes; you can flash your own ROM and switch to CyanogenMod or Replicant. That is the freedom you are guaranteed in Android. But how many people actually take advantage of it?

>>how many people take advantage of it?

The Chinese do.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#348

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

Perseids wrote: post #337
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't the point being made that this is better not looked at as a good versus bad, it's better looked at as one sort of bad against another sort of bad. The fact that one of them is slightly better than the other in one regard doesn't change the fact that neither of them are really that worthy of your support. You're right that Google haven't been patent aggressors up until now but if recent behaviour teaches us…

> But isn't the point being made that this is better not looked at as a good versus bad, it's better looked at as one sort of bad against another sort of bad. The direct consequence of this would be a call to get rid of the evil on both sides and abolish the (software) patent system altogether. I'd like to emphasize a quote from the end of the article: > Patents have become the arena in which tech companies have chos…

> There is no longer competition about the best user experience or the best technical solution to an engineering problem but competition about who can file the best vague, yet court approved patent and secure the most destructive intellectual properties. I don't understand why we are still only talking about reforming the patent system.

Seriously?

iOS7 and Android Kit Kat both move user experience forward both in terms of the UI and the functionality offered. The latest iPhones, Android phones and Lumias are clearly better than what went before. I suspect if you asked average engineers at Apple, Google or Microsoft how much of their time and energy is taken up addressing problems caused by patents the number would be pretty small and if you look at how much those companies spend on patents, lawyers and settlements it's dwarfed by what they spend on product development.

To put the giant $4.5bn spent on the patents in question in context (and remember that's was shared between several companies), it's about what Samsung spend on marketing in a year or half of Apple's 5C/5S iPhone sales for the first weekend they were on sale.

Yes patents are impacting the industry but that's not to say that competition about things users care about has stopped, it's just slowing things up a bit.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#349

Post by existencebox »

As an engineer, I'm repulsed by the whole deal, to the point of feeling sick about it.

I'm going to get a lot of negative posts about hyperbole, but no, I legitimately get red in the face and get a headache whenever I think too hard about the patent wars. It is our fucking JOB to build things, to move technology forward, that is at least, my entire reason for being what I am.

so in my eyes at least; fuck the patent system; fuck the american built system for repressing innovation for "corporate protections." We all argue about whether it's a "better or worse" solution but at this point, when I spend 99% of my time hearing about the billions spent on suppressing innovation rather than supporting it, it makes me realize I want little to no part in the system that motivates this.

I will have no part of it. My code will be open. I will build things that I care about, and give them to the world, and hopefully work at a place that repays me for that (as I have found now.) Consider this my very ill-placed manifesto to in my own endeavors, support innovation, not the ill-gotten-gains of the future holder of my patents.

(I'm not sure if I put this here to get it out there; or for comments; or for thoughts; I think mostly I just feel that it needs to be said, although perhaps unnecessarily alongside an ocean of similar replies :P)

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#350

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

cromwellian wrote: post #274
ubernostrum wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to go all meme on you, but let me FTFY: Google wanted a platform that prevented Microsoft and Apple from beating them to control of the next big advertising platform. Nothing more, nothing less. "Open" has been shown conclusively to take a back seat to monetization. It is as much a marketing tactic (in the sense that it's useful to promote the platform, but can and will be discarded, with spin to explain why, whe…

I give Apple props for for their contributions to LLVM or WebKit (and OpenCL, and Darwin), no one is saying they haven't done any good things for the ecosystem, but that doesn't erase the egregious damage that the iOS T&C impose on the ability of people to do what they want with their devices. To me, that ranks them lower. That, and the aggressive "thermonuclear" offensive litigiousness they have, not just on patents…

I'd go so far as to say that Windows RT is more open than iOS-with Windows RT you have built in Windows Explorer, and command line access. And a non crippled browser (desktop IE 11 vs mobile Safari).
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