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It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

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Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#151

Post by PavlovsCat »

sokoloff wrote: post #141
hackula1 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, we will lie about what we are actually doing. I can understand taking some drastic measures to prevent epic disaster, however, I see no good reason to cover up what is actually going on; threats and countermeasures. By lying, they are forcing us to assume the worst.

And if you assume the worst, they don't (and shouldn't) care. This isn't a popularity contest for them, and the NSA operates as if there is a legitimate national security purpose to what they're doing. I don't like the fact that they're doing it, but presuming that they should operate in total transparency just so that the silicon valley "proper thinkers" won't assume the worst is fairly naive, IMO. They believe they…

In particular, they're making significant individual sacrifices in order to do the work they do. It's not the same sacrifice as doing IED patrol in Afghanistan, but anyone doing high level crypto for NSA could likely make more money and have a cushier life in the private sector.

Where does the funding come from? From the tax payers. Who gets spied on? Everyone and their dog. So yeah, they're making a sacrifice, but even bigger sacrifices are forced on just about everyone else.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#152

Post by jcc80 »

nashequilibrium wrote: post #77
angersock wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extensive surveillance didn't do a thing to save that man, and future surveillance won't bring his legs back. More people have suffered in Gitmo than were injured in the Boston attack, and more people died from drone strikes than when the towers fell.

Did you see the guys youtube videos? Russia contacted the U.S. about one of the brothers, also the FBI did track that he was going to Russia and also interviewd him. They failed in not being able to act on the intelligence they had. The question is what are you willing to give up to go to that LA Laker game without worrying about terrorism or whether your parents will get home safely from the game. I am not trying to…

"with Andy Garcia" - was Al Pacino but either way that's an interesting comparison. Hadn't thought about it that way before.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#153

Post by Zigurd »

wellboy wrote: post #25
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

If you tell a graduate engineer about the great mathematical problems there are to solve and that solving them will protect the American people, it's quite easy to get a strong workforce behind you. And if they were just engineering small parts it was probably hard to see the whole picture, even more so to judge if it's right or wrong. However, this big PR outrage will probably have them come to their senses and crum…

Not before we lose a big chunk of the high tech industry and start to ask why. It takes a $100Billion pin to prick the bubble they live in, if not more.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#154

Post by jMyles »

Cookingboy wrote: post #31
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

What I'm about to say may be too unpopular on HackerNews. Have you considered the possibility that not everyone shares the same moral standard and ideology? People came from different backgrounds and have different experiences, and most things are not black and white, but different shades of gray in this world. I'm sure there are people who consider the Fourth Amendment to be obsolete just like there are people who c…

My moral compass suggests (s)he has the high ground. If there's varying mileage, it seems like (s)he's simply asking for an explanation - a point-of-view paper. And obviously no such thing exists. Not one that can be taken seriously.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#155

Post by snowwrestler »

a3n wrote: post #102
mikeyouse wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone on HN acts like there's no possible reason for people to support these types of activities, but there could be very legitimate reasons these engineers choose to do what they do. It could just be a challenge for them. Where else can you not only get away with, but be rewarded with a good salary and a pension for hacking into the most secure systems on earth? It must be thrilling to be 'Competing' against the…

> It could be that with their security clearances, they know things about threats that make their decision to work for the NSA a moral imperative. This I very much doubt.The builders would have security clearances, because what they're building is classified. But builders would not need and would not have access to intelligence; they aren't analysts or policy makers. They probably have barely more information on inte…

And Snowden came from the builder side of the house, so all we are seeing in his document release so far is classified capabilities, not the intelligence that they collected, or any plots that they thwarted.

The folks who do know that stuff are still following their own rules, so they can't tell us about them.

So we are all operating from an assymmetry of information. I'm really, really against the capabilities I've learned about so far, but I think it's likely that there are actual results that help NSA leadership rationalize these sorts of programs.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#157

Post by tptacek »

Zigurd wrote: post #146
tptacek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most are members of the overwhelming majority of software developers who do not participate in online forums like HN, which is a reason they may seem alien to you.

You are claiming some "silent majority" is with you. And you are doing it in a forum that contains a lot of thought leaders. Color me unconvinced. This is utterly the same as the people who claimed reddit was irrelevant until reddit readership got to be some huge percentage (70M, about the same as Pinterest) of the population.

That is an impressive amount of wrong to pack into a single 9-word sentence.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#158

Post by ihsw »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #136

Google needs to fight back. The first thing Google should do is encourage HTTPS everywhere. Google should change the algorithm to prefer sites that support HTTPS everywhere. Matt Cutts should make some video like: "Google uses over 200 different signals to determine page relevancy. Our users value privacy, so one of the signals we use is whether the site uses HTTPS. We tend to prefer to send search users to secure si…

HTTPS everywhere carries a cost to Google -- crawling the web. There certainly are increased costs associated with crawling an HTTPS-only internet, and the search appliance no doubt prioritizes HTTP over HTTPS.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#159

Post by tedunangst »

Zigurd wrote: post #146
tptacek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most are members of the overwhelming majority of software developers who do not participate in online forums like HN, which is a reason they may seem alien to you.

You are claiming some "silent majority" is with you. And you are doing it in a forum that contains a lot of thought leaders. Color me unconvinced. This is utterly the same as the people who claimed reddit was irrelevant until reddit readership got to be some huge percentage (70M, about the same as Pinterest) of the population.

Huge percentage? Really?

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#160

Post by tptacek »

duairc wrote: post #90
tptacek wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His entire point appears to be that an entire branch of discussion is out of bounds. If I'm trampling, consider it counter-trampling.

I don't know where you're getting this “out of bounds” thing from. I didn't tell anybody to shut up. I didn't tell them that they can't say what they're saying. And even if I did, it's not like I'm in any position of power to force them not have that discussion. I just alluded to the negative consequences of having such a discussion (yes, discussions on the Internet do not exist in a vacuum, and they do have material…

I looked you up before referring to you as a "he", but if your preferred pronoun is "they", I'm happy to respect that.
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