Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S. • Hacker News Board

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#151

Post by tptacek » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 9:04 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #81

kops wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will embrace each of the supposedly problematic things you mentioned in your post any day. They seem rather fair to me. Do you have a different opinion? Why would you want startups to be exempt from this?

I think he wants to make sure people know what they're in for when they leave the US to start a company. In the US, as soon as you pay someone a salary, you basically own them. You can work them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with no vacation or minimum wage. You don't have to provide benefits, and you can fire them for absolutely any reason at any time. You even own everything they do in their free time. That's simp…

At-will employment and salary basis are orthogonal issues. At-will is not a feature of overtime exemption.

No matter what kind of job you have, hourly or salaried, you can be severed at any time for no reason virtually anywhere in the US. At-will employment increases labor mobility and, very notably, makes entrepreneurship less risky by mitigating the problem of every termination being grounds for a lawsuit. At-will has social costs in other sectors where negotiating leverage isn't as balanced between buyers and sellers, but it is probably a significant net benefit for the tech sector.

The swap that is supposed to take place for salary-basis employees is that employees exchange their right to overtime pay for an assurance of full salary payment regardless of hours worked. If you dock an exempt worker's pay for leaving early or coming in late, they revert to overtime-eligible status; that's something that came up at a company I once worked for. Obviously, the other swap that salaried employees make is higher compensation; salaried employees out-earn non-exempt employees.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#152

Post by makmanalp » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 9:09 PM UTC

speedracr wrote: post #149

makmanalp wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's the catch? What's worse about the Blue Card / why would you ever get the work permit?

The Blue Card requires that you have a job contract or very concrete job offer with a minimum salary, and will more or less be tied to that job: If you lose your job, they apparently can give you some time to find a new one, but you may get kicked out if you fail in that endeavor. Also, if you want to change jobs away from the one that originally got you the Blue Card, you'll have to get formal approval. (Edit: this…

So, still better than an H-1B :P

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#153

Post by CalRobert » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 9:11 PM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #85

One negative is if I want to immigrate and get citizenship, I would have to give up my original citizenship. It's too bad that the EU's start up hub is in a country without dual citizenship.

Plenty of startup activity in London, though immigration there is apparently an absolute effing nightmare. The fact that they drive vans around saying to get the fuck out (I paraphrase) is worrisome.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#154

Post by bergie » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 9:13 PM UTC

simonhn wrote: post #97

bergie wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, Berlin is international enough that you'll get by quite nicely without speaking German.

You need to be willing and able to learn German in addition to simply working in Berlin. Depending on your ability to pick up new languages, this can be quite a lot of extra work in the evening and/or weekends (it was for me). Not everyone can, or is willing to (e.g. in banks) speak English, or you may sometimes find yourself on the wrong railway platform, or having a long wait in the wrong queue when you cannot unde…

Sure, things are nicer if you speak even a little German. I don't, and have been doing fine in Berlin. Other German cities on the other hand are a different story.

Oh, and on banks... At least Sparkasse got me an English-speaking rep when I asked for one.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#155

Post by kops » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 9:13 PM UTC

oijaf888 wrote: post #125

kops wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds even more surprising to me even though I have never been to US. Although I always dreamt to... Thanks for your post. I mean no disrespect, but could you please link to any references. Specially about the working hours, minimum wage and vacation etc. If it is true then I am going to do myself a favour and trash my US visa right away. I am not much of a traveller but I can always assume that grand canyon does…

Not visiting the US as a tourist due to the laws on salaried employees seems a bit short sighted.

I know it may sound illogical, but no decision is taken in isolation. Years ago I decided not to do anything with middle eastern countries for what they did to non-muslims, immigrants or to their own women. I still go fill gas in my car knowingly fully well how hypocritical it is, but I pray everyday for Elon Musk to succeed and for us to be off this hook. If US, a country made by immigrants, treats immigrants badly, thats enough for me to make a choice. It doesn't matter if it will have an impact or not. I really couldn't afford to care.... Having said that, if I were starving, I will go anywhere to make a living..and that really explains a lot of misery. I don't have any answers...sorry...

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#156

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 9:20 PM UTC

thetrb wrote: post #140

toomuchtodo wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you apply for the Blue Card prior to finding employment? Or must you find an employer first to sponsor you?

I don't think so. Here are the FAQ about the blue card: http://www.bamf.de/EN/Infothek/FragenAntworten/BlaueKarteEU/... Quote: "What preconditions need to be met in order for an EU Blue Card to be issued? 1. Applicants must provide proof of a completed university degree. If the university degree was not awarded in Germany, it must either be recognised or comparable to a German university degree. 2. Applicants must ei…

Ouch. No degree disqualifies you? I guess some places don't take technical experience.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#157

Post by rafifyalda » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 9:26 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #139

kellysutton wrote: post #7

Having built the first version of LayerVault in Berlin, it was remarkable to see how many expats were building companies there. It's also much more affordable than your more traditional hubs. I can't recommend Berlin enough, especially for building an MVP.

How is the language situation? I'm bilingual English/Chinese, and I've always been put off by thoughts of working in non-UK Europe. I've heard a wide range of stories - some claim speaking English exclusively doesn't pose any major obstacles. Others claim that knowing only English makes your life pretty rough.

Answered this a little further down: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6648758

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#158

Post by kops » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 9:26 PM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #144

kops wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds even more surprising to me even though I have never been to US. Although I always dreamt to... Thanks for your post. I mean no disrespect, but could you please link to any references. Specially about the working hours, minimum wage and vacation etc. If it is true then I am going to do myself a favour and trash my US visa right away. I am not much of a traveller but I can always assume that grand canyon does…

He's exaggerating somewhat. Bear in mind that no one is forcing the employee to accept this. You can leave a job at any time, for any reason with absolutely no notice just as easily as the employer can get rid of you. If I'm hired to work 40 hours/week for $100k year with 3 weeks vacation, I am entitled to all of that. If the employer then decides that I should work 80 hours a week and he will cut my pay to $60k/year…

> Bear in mind that no one is forcing the employee to accept this.

That doesn't quite absolve the employer e.g. if I am stuck in sahara desert and bump into a man starving for days. At this time if I offer him food in return for his soul, would you consider it a fair trade? Even though the poor guy has a choice to reject my offer?

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#159

Post by notahacker » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 9:31 PM UTC

kcorbitt wrote: post #127

jrockway wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he wants to make sure people know what they're in for when they leave the US to start a company. In the US, as soon as you pay someone a salary, you basically own them. You can work them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with no vacation or minimum wage. You don't have to provide benefits, and you can fire them for absolutely any reason at any time. You even own everything they do in their free time. That's simp…

I'm not sure that everything you said is correct, but the beauty of at-will employment is that it allows most of these problems to be solved by people looking to their own best interests. I don't know many companies that would try anything like that because their entire workforce would likely just give notice and quit. That's not in anyone's best interest, so labor conditions (at least in reasonably in-demand fields)…

The entire workforce can give notice and quit in those conditions in Europe, with better unemployment insurance, free health insurance and much more chance of being able to extricate a financial settlement from their employer for unfair treatment.

I'm not saying nothing about at-will contracts filter down to benefit employees: US companies can often afford to pay higher salaries which on some occasions even correspond to higher hourly rates, and they can take more gambles on marginal job candidates. But it would be foolish to pretend it's a balanced tradeoff rather than a massive shift - fairly or otherwise - away from the interests of the median employee and towards the interests of the company.

Re: Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S.

#160

Post by jameshart » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 9:43 PM UTC

CodeMage wrote: post #35

parennoob wrote: post #5

As someone who is a non-US citizen going through the tortuous process of acquiring permanent residency in the US (estimated time: 8-10 years), I will advise any international people looking for their first job -- if you can get one in Berlin, Canada, or elsewhere, take it. The US immigration system is fraught with bureaucracy, and is structured such that employers have strong incentives to delay your application for…

Let's say you knew someone who was granted an H1B1 visa based on a combination of some university education (but without getting a degree) and years of relevant experience in the field. Would this person stand a chance of being granted permanent residency?

There are routes to permanent residency that don't require a degree - basically the only routes that absolutely require it are EB2 'advanced degree', or using a degree as evidence of 'exceptional ability', EB3 'professional' and EB1b 'outstanding professors and researchers'. Admittedly EB2 is probably the standard route for H1B holders, but there's also EB1a and EB1c if you qualify, and there's always good old EB3 'skilled worker', if you have time on your hands, or EB2 'exceptional ability' based on non-academic evidence. Or try getting married to an American.