NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#571

Post by grandalf » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 12:37 PM UTC

EricBurnett wrote: post #563

grandalf wrote: post #152

Aside from the indignation, I'd like to see proof that Google wasn't aware of this stuff. My guess is that it was approved as long as there was plausible deniability.

What proof would satisfy you? It seems like you're asking for something impossible to provide.

I'd need to see proof that the exploit (and operation to support it) was so sophisticated that Google reasonably could not have known.

Since Google has been complicit in a good portion of Snowden's revelations, the burden of proof is on Google to satisfy its customers that it in fact drew the line at the earlier revealed level of complicity rather than the most recent one.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#572

Post by cvshepherd » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 12:44 PM UTC

waps wrote: post #562

PavlovsCat wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Non-EU residents on German soil are subject to summary arrest and deportation And where are the statements saying other countries shouldn't deport illegal aliens? My post asked about exceptionalism, openly stated, did it not? > German domestic wiretapping laws are basically that the executive gets to spy on anyone on German soil without judicial oversight AND outside of Germany [..] The BND does not just have the r…

As for the torture thing : http://strasbourgobservers.com/2010/07/06/389/ Given this article, I think it's safe to say that people get tortured to varying degrees by the German police on a weekly basis at least. Like the US, in the vast majority of cases the police do this for very good reasons. As for a basic introduction to German wiretapping law: https://www.privacyinternational.org/reports/germany/ii-surv... Also…

i remember the Gäfgen v. Germany case quite well. that's because it got a ton of media coverage, here in germany. i don't recall anything of the sorts happening before, or after this case. add to that the fact that the suspect was only 'threatened' with torture, suggesting that the german police resort to torture on a weekly basis, is a very far stretch.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#573

Post by jafaku » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 1:00 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #2

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. That aside, let me re-make a point I keep making: Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. But still, they pushed harder than anyone…

Oh nice, tptacek defending Google again, no matter what.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#574

Post by generj » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 1:08 PM UTC

crucifiction wrote: post #511

generj wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google has the cash to lay their own now though. Or just buy a company which does. I wouldn't be surprised if they do so in the future.

What is the point? If they can tap the cables it seems like owning your own just causes a false sense of security.

It provides better legal grounds to sue.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#575

Post by einehexe » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 1:18 PM UTC

madaxe wrote: post #557

malandrew wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I secretly harbor this fantasy that the next Edward Snowden will be a future American president. They do everything right, cross all the t's, dot all the i's, the perfect politician, then after their first 100 days in office, they come out and publicly address all the ways that the US is hypocritical and could be the model World citizen it pretends to be. At the end of the day, the presidency is the only positi…

Sorry, that's the funniest thing I've read all week. An American president with a moral backbone? Give me a break. That's like expecting it to rain candyfloss. The presidency is a hollow man, a figurehead - it's all just a show to make you think you have a democracy. The tail wags the dog, and entrenched non-elected interests run the show, through corruption, lobbying (corruption), and special interests (corruption).

Lost in all the America hate is the fact that the tapping of Google and Yahoo was done by the British. The whole west is complicit but only America gets the hate so it can continue easily.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#576

Post by PavlovsCat » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 1:36 PM UTC

jafaku wrote: post #573

tptacek wrote: post #2

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. That aside, let me re-make a point I keep making: Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. But still, they pushed harder than anyone…

Oh nice, tptacek defending Google again, no matter what.

Defend them against what? How could one seriously blame them for this, how are they not a victim, just as their users are? Yeah, they could have encrypted their internal network sooner. Just like someone who got robbed could have learned martial arts or taken a different route.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#577

Post by andrewaylett » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 1:40 PM UTC

sseveran wrote: post #551

frenger wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Similarly Americans don't enjoy legal protections from the governments of other countries." Yeah right.

What governments are extending me legal protections?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_jurisdiction#Univers...

In general, these are laws against things like war crimes. The UK (Brit here) also extends some child protection, fraud and bribery laws to cover acts worldwide, the former intended to be used to prosecute sex tourists who are unlikely to be prosecuted where they committed the offences.

I'm unsure whether any of these laws have actually specifically protected you, but the reason for their introduction is to afford people in other countries similar protection from UK-based criminals to the protections people enjoy in the UK.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#578

Post by Nanzikambe » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 2:06 PM UTC

graue wrote: post #538

Nanzikambe wrote: post #117

It's interesting that there's been little attention paid to what this genre of backbone/infrastructure tapping means for companies using content accelerators (or whatever they're called). Considering what we now know about tailored access operations, I find it hard to imagine they've not used these abilities to subvert the auto-update functionality of virtually every product there is out there. Ie. client requests au…

That would seem to be a harder problem for the NSA. First, it has to be an active attack, modifying data in transit rather than merely siphoning it off — probably tougher to cover their tracks in that case. Second, automatic updates are presumably cryptographically signed by the publisher, so the NSA also has to steal or crack the private signing key. Third, how do you target the backdoored version of the software so…

Whilst I agree with your point, I think an important question to ask is "harder compared to what exactly?"

Cracking SSL? Weaking crypto standards? Tapping undersea fiber? MITM attacks?

Given all those are used, I find it hard to believe the update vector isn't exploited. Sure you'd need to compromise the signing key first, but that's a single target allowing you the ability to subvert many more without the need for any breaking & entering or social engineering alerting intending targets/victims.

I'll take my tinfoil hat off now.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#579

Post by AYBABTME » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 2:08 PM UTC

sseveran wrote: post #524

AYBABTME wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not so much about the expected behavior of a spy agency, or how the US government justify itself "But it's only on non-citizens". That's kind of expected, like you explained. The problem is when the medias, the public and politicians are reassuring and reassured by that "But it's only for non-citizens". To a foreigner like me, what I see is that US citizens, medias and politicians are just fine with my…

Correct. You have no legal right to privacy in the US and enjoy none of the legal protections from our government that citizens enjoy (or should). You can be renditioned, spied on and wiretapped with no legal recourse in the US. Similarly Americans don't enjoy legal protections from the governments of other countries. Now two countries may enter into an agreement not to surveil each other or their citizens. That is c…

But my point is specifically not about legality.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#580

Post by bo1024 » Thu, Oct 31, 2013, 2:11 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #555

bo1024 wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things that were practically impossible 50 (or even 5) years ago are commonplace today.

That doesn't change the fact that nobody today can use homomorphic encryption, contrary to your claim.

I did not mean to make any such claim (hence the phrase, "in theory"). I was responding to the statement that "large cloud systems are fundamentally incapable of protecting data" by pointing out that, in theory, they are.