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NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

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Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#561

Post by PavlovsCat »

leot wrote: post #481
jlgreco wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us don't consider human rights a "privilege".

If privacy is a human right, it's not (to me, at least) of the same caliber as "life, liberty, and security of person". People behave best because they have internalized social norms, those arguments and attitudes that we proudly expose.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Otherwise, how would you define "liberty" or "security of person"? You're free to do what you want as long as it doesn't encroach on the freedom of others, and if being spied on makes you not want to do some things you ought to be able to do, then that's just tough luck, but not a restriction on liberty or your security? I'd say freedom of action is worthless without freedom of thought and speech, and that you can't pick and choose human rights, or rank them.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#562

Post by waps »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #540
waps wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really ? How about : German soldiers abroad (say, in Afghanistan). Do they respect foreign law ? Of course not. Non-EU residents on German soil are subject to summary arrest and deportation (it's more complex than this, I know, but as summaries go you could do worse) German social security treats citizens, residents and illegal aliens vastly differently German domestic wiretapping laws are basically that the executiv…

> Non-EU residents on German soil are subject to summary arrest and deportation And where are the statements saying other countries shouldn't deport illegal aliens? My post asked about exceptionalism, openly stated, did it not? > German domestic wiretapping laws are basically that the executive gets to spy on anyone on German soil without judicial oversight AND outside of Germany [..] The BND does not just have the r…

As for the torture thing :

http://strasbourgobservers.com/2010/07/06/389/

Given this article, I think it's safe to say that people get tortured to varying degrees by the German police on a weekly basis at least. Like the US, in the vast majority of cases the police do this for very good reasons.

As for a basic introduction to German wiretapping law:

https://www.privacyinternational.org/reports/germany/ii-surv...

Also you act surprised ? Why ? These laws are the "roughly" same across the EU. Generally a certain degree of violence, even what might be considered torture (but not outright "real" torture. Violence against an arrested person, ie. hitting them or so, even things like denying food/drink when it's not life threatening) is allowed in the EU to protect the institutions (parliament, government, ...) (but only for "existential" threats that threaten the institution itself, not just, say, the building), and to protect the lives of others.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#563

Post by EricBurnett »

grandalf wrote: post #152

Aside from the indignation, I'd like to see proof that Google wasn't aware of this stuff. My guess is that it was approved as long as there was plausible deniability.

What proof would satisfy you? It seems like you're asking for something impossible to provide.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#564

Post by waps »

sanderjd wrote: post #529
bigiain wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly like that. If Obama believed these programs (and Guantanamo Bay) were "wrong" with the same conviction Snowden believes – he'd do what it takes to shut them down, with the same career/livelihood risks that Snowden accepted. It's precisely the sort of moral compromises that Obama has made to allow Guantanamo Bay to stay operating, that have allowed the NSA to grab so much extraordinary power amd avoid any sort…

Honestly, dedicating himself to fixing this problem may be the only way he can save his presidency in the eyes of history at this point. Literally everything he's overseen has been a disaster.

The problem, of course, is that the president probably knows about the reason these programs came to be. What if there's a good reason ?

I mean you can be cynical or you can be realist. The cynical explanation would probably be that the president/congress don't really control a few organisations like the NSA.

The realist reason would be that the NSA can point to a couple dozen cases where their surveillance saved thousands of lives, American or otherwise. That they have very, very convincing arguments that these policies are worth it.

Also I am a bit fatalist about privacy expectations. Have you seen how "working class" people live in Hong Kong and how much privacy they effectively have ?

That's the future for the vast majority of humans on this planet, unless growth stops. If growth does stop, death and famine is the future for the majority of humans.

Enjoy it while it lasts, or collect enough money that you can realistically enjoy privacy and space until you die. For the next generation, it's a lost cause.

Government intrusion of privacy is (should be) the least of anyone's worries.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#565

Post by BillyMaize »

bo1024 wrote: post #133
BillyMaize wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In theory, fully homomorphic encryption could allow the best of both worlds above. I completely encrypt my data on my machine --- nobody else has the key --- then send it into the cloud where cloud companies can do operations for me like searching, sorting, filtering, etc, all without ever decrypting the data or learning what it is. Can you explain this to me? I don't understand how you can search encrypted data.

It's mind-boggling, but possible. Here's the wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homomorphic_encryption The idea is this: I encrypt my data and give it to the cloud. I also encrypt the algorithm I want the cloud to use. In this case, it could be a search algorithm with the search query hardcoded. Right now, it would have to be encoded as a circuit and then encrpyted from there into a different circuit. The c…

Ah yes now it seems obvious, thanks.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#566

Post by lemming »

danbruc wrote: post #390
spikels wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately we don't live in the world you imagine but I would join you in trying to improve the world we actually live in. I don't see how a trade and travel embargo could possibly help - it would almost certainly make things worse! Clearly there is no actual right to privacy under international law and rules vary greatly by country and are often weak in practice[1]. This is want we need to change either through t…

The thing about isolating the USA was not meant as a real solution, it was just to illustrate my feelings. See also this comment [1] of mine for a clarification. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) [1] contains privacy right in article 12 [3]. The UDHR is not legally binding but the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) [4] is and contains the privacy rights, too. The USA signed an…

What's interesting with these declarations (and I'm surprised they don't even get a mention in the media) is that they specifically say that these rights cannot be denied based on "national or social origin". So it's basically illegal for the US to invade the privacy of foreign citizens according to the terms of those covenants. The US Constitution is probably in direct violation of it as far as I can tell since it specifically only applies to Americans.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#567

Post by PavlovsCat »

waps wrote: post #562
PavlovsCat wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Non-EU residents on German soil are subject to summary arrest and deportation And where are the statements saying other countries shouldn't deport illegal aliens? My post asked about exceptionalism, openly stated, did it not? > German domestic wiretapping laws are basically that the executive gets to spy on anyone on German soil without judicial oversight AND outside of Germany [..] The BND does not just have the r…

As for the torture thing : http://strasbourgobservers.com/2010/07/06/389/ Given this article, I think it's safe to say that people get tortured to varying degrees by the German police on a weekly basis at least. Like the US, in the vast majority of cases the police do this for very good reasons. As for a basic introduction to German wiretapping law: https://www.privacyinternational.org/reports/germany/ii-surv... Also…

what about

- "the executive gets to spy on anyone on German soil without judicial oversight"

- "The BND does not just have the right to spy on anyone, but it can summarily arrest anyone, intervene in any investigation without question"

- "Germany and France are transmitting everyone's internet usage to an organisation so it could sue them for copyright infringement in an automated fashion"

?

from the link you posted, emphasis mine:

> "According to a 2003 survey, 75 percent of conducted telephone wiretapping actions violated the law. In most instances of wiretapping, law enforcement agencies did not inform the subjects after the eavesdropping took place, contrary to what is stipulated by the law. [..] In April 1998, Article 13 of the Constitution (Grundgesetz) that provides for the inviolability of private homes was amended in order to allow police authorities to place bugging devices in private homes (provided there is a court order)."

I wasn't "acting surprised", I was asking for sources, and now I kind of have to call bullshit on a lot of the stuff you said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Germany#Torture

Yup, bullshit. And at any rate nowhere near comparable to the US, where people are afraid to close Gitmo because the people were so badly mistreated they might turn on them. So why would I be "10 times more" outraged? Maybe because I, as a German/EU citizen, am more directly responsible for the stuff going on here - granted. But otherwise? Get real. Have you even READ the first article you posted?

> "The Court stated that “[t]orture, inhuman or degrading treatment cannot be inflicted even in circumstances where the life of an individual is at risk” and –under its assessment of the alleged violation of art. 6 – “[b]eing absolute, there can be no weighing of other interests against article 3."

How does this make you conclude that "people get tortured to varying degrees by the German police on a weekly basis at least"? That's just saying stuff, in the hope some of it will stick. Boo.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#568

Post by grey-area »

bilbo0s wrote: post #458
waterlesscloud wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Sorry. The President does bear full responsibility. That's the nature of the job. If he wants to claim he wasn't aware, OK. But he is now and it's his responsibility to fix it. Again, that's the nature of the job. If the President wanted to eliminate these programs, they'd get eliminated. It would require the exercise of political will, but it absolutely could be done. The problem, actually, is right here, when p…

Maybe I'm not being clear. My assertion is that trust has broken down. And therefore the ability to validate has broken down. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the President and the Congress eliminate these programs... How would you or I... or any foreign person validate that? How would I, in good faith, tell a foreign person, or even another citizen, that their communications are no longer being monitore…

The NSA requires money to operate, huge amounts of money. If that black funding was cut, they wouldn't be able to pay off GCHQ for example to provide hacks like this. If those programs were eliminated, the funding would stop, and you can't redirect that level of funding from other projects without someone noticing.

Obama is complicit with this system and quite happy for it continue.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#569

Post by nickpyett »

caseydurfee wrote: post #409
nickpyett wrote: post #142

Larry Page should step down as CEO. It would never happen, as Google shares would drop like a bomb and give credence to the argument that the cloud isn't secure enough, but at least it would show that someone at Google cares. It would create a landmark moment though; something that would spark more debate in both the media and with American politicians.

Better yet: appoint a goat to be CEO and then ritually sacrifice it. Maybe write "Google Cares" on the side of the goat before killing it. I guarantee that would spark some interesting debate!

"Google: Don't be evil, to goats"

Except that one we just killed. I think you're on to something.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#570

Post by bilbo0s »

grey-area wrote: post #568
bilbo0s wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm not being clear. My assertion is that trust has broken down. And therefore the ability to validate has broken down. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that the President and the Congress eliminate these programs... How would you or I... or any foreign person validate that? How would I, in good faith, tell a foreign person, or even another citizen, that their communications are no longer being monitore…

The NSA requires money to operate, huge amounts of money . If that black funding was cut, they wouldn't be able to pay off GCHQ for example to provide hacks like this. If those programs were eliminated, the funding would stop, and you can't redirect that level of funding from other projects without someone noticing. Obama is complicit with this system and quite happy for it continue.

"...If that black funding was cut..."

How would you know? The answer is, essentially, "Trust".

You would trust the politicians when they say that the funding had been cut. The politicians, in their turn, would trust the functionaries when they say no funding was going into communications monitoring.

What if you don't trust the politicians or the functionaries... do you have any method of validating the elimination of the funding not based on "Trust"?

"...you can't redirect that level of funding from other projects without someone noticing..."

These are, at their core, intelligence agencies. "Redirecting that level of funding... without someone noticing..." is their job. It's what they are trained to do, among other things. I think it's a little optimistic to believe that they would not use that skill to accomplish their mission if they found it necessary.

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