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NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

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Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#361

Post by rhizome »

allochthon wrote: post #206
danbruc wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am at a loss for words. Arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious...nothing cuts it. It is illegal in the US but who cares about the rest of the world? I can not remember when something similar made me that angry as the current conduct of the US does. If I would not know better that this would negatively affect the whole world and innocent US citizens and that emotional reactions are usually not…

I would just cut all cables to the US, ... deny US citizens to enter any foreign country and then just do your shit over there and get happy with it. Whoah, there. Your grievances are well-placed. But keep in mind that it's a certain subset of agencies in the US government that are responsible for the problems you're upset about, not all US citizens. As for fixing things, the government has become literally unmanagea…

Well, let's look at the policies of the US against rogue states: sanctions. What GP is describing is connectivity sanctions rather than trade or economic ones.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#362

Post by jlgreco »

jellicle wrote: post #353
chubot wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation for that? Seems plausible but I'm interested in any details.

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/mmp/jimmy-carter.htm Apparently the procedure is to position the USS Jimmy Carter over the cable, send out a remote vehicle to grab the cable and pull it up to the sub, splice in tapping equipment, and then drop the cable. Intercontinental cables are less than one inch in diameter in deep water. If the sub plants the tap in deep water, it's extremely unlikely that anyone would ever discove…

> There are a few cable repair ships that pull broken cables to the surface and fix them, but other than that... No one can reach it and no one will bother it.

Even if you pull the cable up to repair it, it is unlikely that you would discover the tap. The device used in Operation Ivy Bells was designed to detach from the cable if the cable was lifted. Non-intrustive tapping might not be possible with fiber (it isn't, as far as I know), but I expect they have other mechanisms to avoid discovery. Perhaps lifting the cable would cause the cable to "snap" on either side of the tap, before the device could be lifted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/ic2000/ivy_bells_pod.jpg

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#363

Post by danbruc »

pnathan wrote: post #349
danbruc wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am at a loss for words. Arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious...nothing cuts it. It is illegal in the US but who cares about the rest of the world? I can not remember when something similar made me that angry as the current conduct of the US does. If I would not know better that this would negatively affect the whole world and innocent US citizens and that emotional reactions are usually not…

The purpose of intelligence agencies is to spy on non-citizens, both in peacetime and in wartime. One might argue that traditionally they focused on public figures in the foreign states and that spying on average foreigners is new; I don't know if that's true, but seems plausible. It would generally be a dereliction of duty for the NSA/CIA to not spy on non-Americans. The same holds true, modulo agency name and count…

That is what I would prefer. I can not think of a good reason why we (Germany) should spy at our friends like France, the UK or the USA. Agencies should gather information about (potentially) dangerous citizens in their country and share this information with other countries. I have also no problem with collecting information in war zones and I include countries hosting terrorists where you can not rely on there agencies to provide good information here.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#364

Post by a3n »

swombat wrote: post #194
a3n wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot imagine Germany closing the US Embassy.

Yeah, it's not like the German people are at all sensitive about the topic of having a secret, unaccountable organisation spying on them.

As we're learning here in the US, there's a big difference and gap between "the people" and the government.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#365

Post by sukuriant »

allc wrote: post #312
sukuriant wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the anti-virus industry refuse to hire people that had developed viruses? Aren't those the people that think like virus writers and could write better antivirus software? Same with the hacking half of that. Those are the people that best know how to secure systems. Wouldn't it be the people that used to be blackhat and have transitioned to gray or white-hat hacking that would be the best people to provide t…

because of their underlying lack of ethics. You need to have ethical hackers that are interested in the wellbeing/security of a community/society. Even if they know the systems from both perspectives, if they even have a moral deficiency, what's to stop them from committing insider attacks/writing exploits of the system? You cannot trust that type of people unless you know for certain that they have abandoned their p…

Given your assumptions, that makes sense; however, given what our parent commenter said, I came away with different assumptions.

From our parent: I used to work in the antivirus industry, and, as I recall, anything that even hinted at a history of hacking or virus-writing would lead to instant dismissal and black-listing (from pretty much the entire computer security industry). I imagine that the same prohibition would now apply to former government employees also.

They used the world "hacking", which I took to mean any form of hacking. We'd need the parent to respond to which one was meant, of course; but if it means any sort of hacking, from xbox modding to submitting bug and exploit reports to Google (which, how do you know if there's an exploit without trying to find it?), then hacking would include all of those people, including the people who you define as "ethical hackers".

If you're a known, aggressive and clearly unreformed cyber-saboteur, then it's pretty much a given that you shouldn't be hired to an anti-virus company since you probably are in there to commit insider attacks (I can't know for sure, I'm not in your brain) and it's reasonable to not hire you; however, if you're a tinkerer and inspector of things and dismantler of technology, then you would know how systems work and where issues are and could even be an asset, especially if you're very good at it. Depending on the author, both of those people could be seen as 'hackers'.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#366

Post by sukuriant »

driverdan wrote: post #254
w_t_payne wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work in the antivirus industry, and, as I recall, anything that even hinted at a history of hacking or virus-writing would lead to instant dismissal and black-listing (from pretty much the entire computer security industry). I imagine that the same prohibition would now apply to former government employees also. The sad fact of the matter is that we cannot trust individuals that have ever worked with these…

> ... instant dismissal and black-listing (from pretty much the entire computer security industry) I'm not sure where you got that from. A large percentage of the security industry is made up of people who got their start as blackhats.

That is sincerely what I had thought, as well.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#367

Post by jganetsk »

danbruc wrote: post #346
spikels wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree the NSA's conduct is outrageous you seem to be confused about how countries actually work. Every country treats non-citizens worse than citizens - fewer rights and benefits, more limited (if any) work opportunities, additional hassles, etc. And most countries have intelligence agencies that spy on foreign countries and their citizens often in ways that break foreign laws. Don't be so naive.

There are of course differences in the treatment of citizens and non-citizens and this for good reasons like controlling immigration. But there should be no differences when it comes to human rights including privacy rights and this is what I complain about - different treatment as to human rights. And this goes beyond spying and also includes for example torturing people in Guantanamo. And yes, not only the US are b…

There are no differences, both in practice and in theory, to the privacy rights of citizens and non-citizens. Everyone is spied on, and it is legal. The NSA is tasked with spying on foreign nationals. The FBI is tasked with spying on US nationals. Everyone seems to be getting caught up with these legal technicalities. Our agencies spy on everyone they can (as probably does every spy agency in the world). Our government might not even be aware of or in control of it.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#368

Post by a3n »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #318
a3n wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot imagine Germany closing the US Embassy.

No, you could not . But now we are entertaining that notion. That is the change that has occurred.

Fair point.

I would like to see something drastic and concrete happen, if it lead to reining in the wolves.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#369

Post by spikels »

danbruc wrote: post #346
spikels wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree the NSA's conduct is outrageous you seem to be confused about how countries actually work. Every country treats non-citizens worse than citizens - fewer rights and benefits, more limited (if any) work opportunities, additional hassles, etc. And most countries have intelligence agencies that spy on foreign countries and their citizens often in ways that break foreign laws. Don't be so naive.

There are of course differences in the treatment of citizens and non-citizens and this for good reasons like controlling immigration. But there should be no differences when it comes to human rights including privacy rights and this is what I complain about - different treatment as to human rights. And this goes beyond spying and also includes for example torturing people in Guantanamo. And yes, not only the US are b…

Unfortunately we don't live in the world you imagine but I would join you in trying to improve the world we actually live in. I don't see how a trade and travel embargo could possibly help - it would almost certainly make things worse! Clearly there is no actual right to privacy under international law and rules vary greatly by country and are often weak in practice[1]. This is want we need to change either through treaties, constitutions or laws. I don't know where you live but in the US it would probably take a constitional amendment - a very difficult procedure - or a very broad decision by the Supreme Court - unlikely.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_law

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#370

Post by sfx »

brown9-2 wrote: post #301
swalkergibson wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The terrorism threat is simply a convenient bogeyman. The probabilities of dying in a random terrorist attack are so infinitesimally small that it is not even worth considering. Ordinary Americans are simply too stupid to really comprehend exactly what is happening here and subscribe to the "well, I don't have anything to hide" type logic. The fact is that the terrorists have won. The American public, due to indiffer…

So, what types of widespread abusive things is the government doing to American citizens with all this surveillance? When you say "convenient bogeyman" it implies that all of this surveillance was built with the express purpose of spying on Americans. I personally believe that to be false, and instead that the massive and overbearing surveillance was built because public officials are so afraid of another massive ter…

It's a nice thought to believe there isn't malice in the government, but the facts say otherwise. Intelligence laundering to bypass our basic legal rights is a malicious motive[1]. Russ Tice's (NSA whistlerblower) interview talking about all the people the NSA targeted (including our president in 2004) is also not only malicious, but terrifying.[2] And as Bill Binney (another NSA whisteblower) has said, we're a "turn key totalitarian state", I'm not sure how one could think a totalitarian state could not be malicious.

[1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intel... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Tice

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