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NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

washingtonpost.com

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Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#371

Post by mpyne »

tptacek wrote: post #2

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. That aside, let me re-make a point I keep making: Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. But still, they pushed harder than anyone…

> It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time.

Well, the article makes the point exceptionally well; it's unclear why MUSCULAR is needed when PRISM already exists.

However as long as the interception was exclusively between overseas Google and Yahoo data centers I'm not actually sure it's even clearly criminal.

Instead I think it shows a rather stunning 'loophole' in current U.S. law and case law when you intersect a globalized Internet with laws meant to deal with national-level communications.

Frankly, this is the same feeling I experienced when it became clear how global companies are able to "nation shop" for maximum tax advantage. I didn't like seeing it then, and I don't like it here.

But although the behavior might be technically legal (thanks to the platoon of lawyers) it's certainly not in keeping with the spirit. It seems to me that oversight much become much, much more intrusive than it used to be.

Instead of writing the law and then letting NSA squirm for years until it finds loopholes that work for it, it's time to force effective oversight deep into every level.

Because what's most striking to me is that I'm not sure that even the law as it stood before 2001 would have made this behavior technically illegal. MUSCULAR couldn't have happened then, of course, but now that American data is being farmed automatically to data centers around the world....

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#372

Post by dsl »

DannyBee wrote: post #325
zachrose wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google doesn't actually own the underwater cables though. So isn't the analogy more like sending things through a LAN in a building that you're renting?

http://gigaom.com/2008/02/25/googlenet-update-google-buys-a-...

From the link:

> Google is buying a piece of a new transpacific fiber optic cable

Only a half dozen or so companies actually own undersea fiber. It requires a huge amount of effort to lay and maintain including hundred million dollar cable ships.

Everyone (even Google) leases, or in this case buys, capacity on shared cables.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#373

Post by waterlesscloud »

bilbo0s wrote: post #248
danbruc wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am at a loss for words. Arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious...nothing cuts it. It is illegal in the US but who cares about the rest of the world? I can not remember when something similar made me that angry as the current conduct of the US does. If I would not know better that this would negatively affect the whole world and innocent US citizens and that emotional reactions are usually not…

I'm a US citizen. Born and bred. And, at this point, I can't in good faith say that I would blame you. I think it's pretty safe to say that getting rid of a President is no longer enough. My sense is that the people who make these policies really are "Beyond Elections". They are constants in our government. And appear unassailable. I doubt very much that we, the American People, could even IDENTIFY the people setting…

No. Sorry. The President does bear full responsibility. That's the nature of the job.

If he wants to claim he wasn't aware, OK. But he is now and it's his responsibility to fix it. Again, that's the nature of the job.

If the President wanted to eliminate these programs, they'd get eliminated. It would require the exercise of political will, but it absolutely could be done.

The problem, actually, is right here, when people start making excuses for our leaders.

Stop.

Hold them responsible. Responsibility is why the job even exists.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#375

Post by mpyne »

bostonpete wrote: post #144
bradleyjg wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. The government takes the position that their agents are almost completely unconstrained by law when it comes to actions taken abroad aimed at non-US persons. Even we…

> actions taken abroad aimed at non-US persons. Aren't Google and Yahoo US persons? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood#Corporatio...

Doesn't Google and Yahoo both operate shell companies overseas in order to avoid US taxes though?

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#377

Post by danbruc »

dragonwriter wrote: post #348
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> imply that he thought the US was doing something unique But the US is doing something unique. No other country has the global reach and the sheer military budget that the US has. It's debatable that other countries are "above" it in moral terms, but the US certainly has taken it to a whole new level. Edit: I also don't see where "But he's building his whole argument on ... US was deserving of special disdain". Desp…

> It's debatable that other countries are "above" it in moral terms It's really not, since many of the releases of information about what the US is doing -- including the current one -- have other countries also neck deep in it. I mean, the actual spying in the article that this comment thread is attached to is done by the UK's GCHQ, NSA is just a consumer of the data.

As pointed out above, misconduct of other countries does not justify the own behavior. There is really no big difference between collecting the information on your own or letting someone else do the dirty work and then just crabbing the results. I should have pointed out more clearly that I am not especially against the behavior of the USA but against behavior like this in general but I did so in some other comments.

Besides that the US are doing (almost) unique things among to most developed countries, for example I can not even imagine any EU country doing something like Guantanamo or having the death penalty. To make it clear again, I am not primarily angry because of the spying on its own but the sentiment as to human rights beyond it.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#378

Post by dsleno »

tptacek wrote: post #2

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. That aside, let me re-make a point I keep making: Google had no knowledge of NSA's physical compromise of their data centers. But still, they pushed harder than anyone…

I don't think pushed hard enough for the adoption of TLS. It's only finally THIS YEAR that they made available their ubiquitous AdSense code for SSL/TSL. Because many websites derive their full livelihood from AdSense, Google has effectively been stalling the widespread adoption of SSL on the web. If you were a news website and you used AdSense, then forget about ever implementing SSL; it would kill our site.

Although I'm glad they have finally started serving AdSense in SSL, Google need to take ownership in their big role in keeping the internet unencrypted. If they have had a had a change of heart, that's great. But I don't trust them any more.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#379

Post by blumkvist »

judk wrote: post #290
blumkvist wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the exact same feelings when I saw so many people go "They will just borrow more money" in the recent US govt. shutdown. The arrogance is unbelievable. Shows complete lack of remorse over leeching off the rest of the world. Very disappointed in the american citizens' reaction to the catastrophic political decisions their leaders have been making for decades.

Borrowing money at interest is not leeching. That is not how macroeconomics works. Defaulting is maybe leeching. Manipulating the defacto world currency -- that is leeching.

that was what I was referring to - leveraging the dollar's status of reserve currency. That's coming to an end for sure tho. Will laugh my ass off then at their ignorance.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#380

Post by wmeredith »

betterunix wrote: post #19
jakewalker wrote: post #4

If that graphic - that taunting smiley face, drawn when it was assumed that no one was watching - isn't enough to outrage the general public, I don't know what it will take. This is not super technical - it's easily explained and should be easily understood by the masses. And it should cause outrage.

You know what would outrage the public? ESPN being shut down. Most people do not actually care about their privacy. Even if everyone had the technical chops needed to understand what has been happening, most people never spend much time contemplating the importance of privacy rights.

You know what would outrage the public? Having any of this affect them directly in any tangible way. It doesn't. So they don't care.
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