Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 614 posts

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#341

Post by Bluestrike2 »

cromwellian wrote: post #181
orblivion wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an argument: assuming the worst suspicions, Google and the others are complicit in PRISM, so they deserve our scrutiny here. If this one were dumped at the same time, since Google was blindsided by this, people might forget to scrutinize Google for a while.

There's a difference between assuming the worst, and having evidence on your desk that refutes your own assumptions.

In what way were previous disclosures refuted? PRISM and MUSCULAR aren't mutually exclusive.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#342

Post by sv123 »

smoyer wrote: post #276

Would anyone else be interested in inserting a private version of a tracking pixel into each of their e-mails, so that you'd get a list of IP addresses where the mail was viewed back? It would be interesting to see where mail was read versus where it is simply passed in plain text. Crowd-sourcing anonymous data might also allow us to determine which IP addresses belong to the NSA's systems.

If it's passed in plain text the tracking pixel wont load.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#343

Post by anaphor »

MichaelGG wrote: post #328
CoryG89 wrote: post #288

As a software engineer just about to graduate from college. When I see drawings like that I just can't believe that people who know enough to draw something like that can actually do it without feeling like they are the definition of evil.

Why is it so hard to understand that there are intelligent people that honestly believe they're doing something that will ultimately benefit their country? People have done far worse in the name of a country or ideal. For people outraged over the apparent happiness of the people that tapped Google, I imagine they've never broken a system. A breakthrough on a project is extremely enjoyable. Finding that Google removed…

They still deserve to be skinned alive though. As feminists are fond of saying "intent isn't magic".

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#344

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

SeanLuke wrote: post #336
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really believe that this is the modus operandi only of the United States? Your fallacy is: Tu quoque http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Tu quoque is basically the "but everyone does it" argument. I agree that'd be specious -- but I'm not saying that. Rather, I'm the poster's claims ("arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious") -- particularly "arrogant" -- imply that he thought the US was doing something unique that other countries are above, and thus the US was deserving of special disdain. This implication is simply wrong. But h…

> imply that he thought the US was doing something unique

But the US is doing something unique. No other country has the global reach and the sheer military budget that the US has. It's debatable that other countries are "above" it in moral terms, but the US certainly has taken it to a whole new level.

Edit: I also don't see where "But he's building his whole argument on ... US was deserving of special disdain". Despite the larger scope of the US's transgressions, you are saying "but they do it too". I think that the Tu Quoque fallacy absolutely applies. Nowhere is it said that other countries would not be worthy of equal disdain under equal circumstances. And if it were to be said, it would be wrong.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#345

Post by jlgreco »

acqq wrote: post #327
jlgreco wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of Obama's campaign was an end to warrentless wiretaps. Now, if people were paying closer attention, then maybe they would have known better than to trust him (or indeed, any American politician), but I think it is quite a stretch to say that the people are to blame when a politician is less than honest. Furthermore, the people who are to blame for our current political system are long dead. Everyone alive today…

Exactly, Obama in 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAQlsS9diBs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fnfVJzZT4 "This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand." (...) "That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothi…

> Regarding "work within the framework to modify the framework" Snowden decided not to work within it and we still don't know what will happen to him.

What we do know is that he got shit done. His voice has been heard, people are talking now, he has had an impact.

Opting to work outside the framework is often not safe, particularly when the framework includes provisions for harming those who opt to work outside of it, but sometimes that is the only effective option.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#346

Post by danbruc »

spikels wrote: post #297
danbruc wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am at a loss for words. Arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious...nothing cuts it. It is illegal in the US but who cares about the rest of the world? I can not remember when something similar made me that angry as the current conduct of the US does. If I would not know better that this would negatively affect the whole world and innocent US citizens and that emotional reactions are usually not…

While I agree the NSA's conduct is outrageous you seem to be confused about how countries actually work. Every country treats non-citizens worse than citizens - fewer rights and benefits, more limited (if any) work opportunities, additional hassles, etc. And most countries have intelligence agencies that spy on foreign countries and their citizens often in ways that break foreign laws. Don't be so naive.

There are of course differences in the treatment of citizens and non-citizens and this for good reasons like controlling immigration. But there should be no differences when it comes to human rights including privacy rights and this is what I complain about - different treatment as to human rights. And this goes beyond spying and also includes for example torturing people in Guantanamo. And yes, not only the US are breaking foreign law, but this does not at all justify this behavior.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#347

Post by jlgreco »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #329
jganetsk wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are not going to start hating Americans. They have already been hating Americans for hundreds of years. It started with the "degeneracy thesis" in the 18th century, where it had been suggested by European intellectuals that the American climate led to physically inferior animals and humans. The reasons for hating Americans change everyday. Hating a group of people is a completely irrational, unconstructive app…

Respect, sure. But "asking nicely"? How has that not been done already, over and over and over? " Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people that were oppressing them. " -- Assata Shakur Even though we could argue about wether this stuff consititutes "oppression", I think the point still applies, sadly.

> "Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people that were oppressing them." -- Assata Shakur

I think there are one or two examples in recent history. The LGBT movement has made a great deal of ground recently by appealing to peoples' sensibilities.

Now, in more extreme cases you aren't going to talk the oppressors out of anything. I doubt anybody has ever stopped a genocide with rational argument and appeal to the murderers' sensibilities.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#348

Post by dragonwriter »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #344
SeanLuke wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tu quoque is basically the "but everyone does it" argument. I agree that'd be specious -- but I'm not saying that. Rather, I'm the poster's claims ("arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious") -- particularly "arrogant" -- imply that he thought the US was doing something unique that other countries are above, and thus the US was deserving of special disdain. This implication is simply wrong. But h…

> imply that he thought the US was doing something unique But the US is doing something unique. No other country has the global reach and the sheer military budget that the US has. It's debatable that other countries are "above" it in moral terms, but the US certainly has taken it to a whole new level. Edit: I also don't see where "But he's building his whole argument on ... US was deserving of special disdain". Desp…

> It's debatable that other countries are "above" it in moral terms

It's really not, since many of the releases of information about what the US is doing -- including the current one -- have other countries also neck deep in it. I mean, the actual spying in the article that this comment thread is attached to is done by the UK's GCHQ, NSA is just a consumer of the data.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#349

Post by pnathan »

danbruc wrote: post #156
bradleyjg wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard not to come to the conclusion that these activities were essentially criminal. I don't see how the administration can fail to disavow them, investigate them fully, and hold their instigators accountable. It feels like Special Prosecutor time. The government takes the position that their agents are almost completely unconstrained by law when it comes to actions taken abroad aimed at non-US persons. Even we…

I am at a loss for words. Arrogant, self-righteous, disrespectful, ignorant, mendacious...nothing cuts it. It is illegal in the US but who cares about the rest of the world? I can not remember when something similar made me that angry as the current conduct of the US does. If I would not know better that this would negatively affect the whole world and innocent US citizens and that emotional reactions are usually not…

The purpose of intelligence agencies is to spy on non-citizens, both in peacetime and in wartime. One might argue that traditionally they focused on public figures in the foreign states and that spying on average foreigners is new; I don't know if that's true, but seems plausible.

It would generally be a dereliction of duty for the NSA/CIA to not spy on non-Americans. The same holds true, modulo agency name and country, for any other country.

Now, if you want to make the argument that national borders should dissolve and that spying on foreigners should become history - or something like that - that's up to you. But spy agency gonna spy.

Re: NSA infiltrates links to Yahoo, Google data centers worldwide

#350

Post by rhizome »

hexis wrote: post #300
bilbo0s wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a US citizen. Born and bred. And, at this point, I can't in good faith say that I would blame you. I think it's pretty safe to say that getting rid of a President is no longer enough. My sense is that the people who make these policies really are "Beyond Elections". They are constants in our government. And appear unassailable. I doubt very much that we, the American People, could even IDENTIFY the people setting…

"My sense is that the people who make these policies really are "Beyond Elections". They are constants in our government." Yes, these people are our fellow citizens. There is no conspiracy, merely functioning democracy.

It may be a functioning democracy to whatever degree, but is it still a constitutional republic?
Post reply on HN