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The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

nytimes.com

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Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#71

Post by tomjen3 »

dhughes wrote: post #65
pvnick wrote: post #32

E-Cigarettes are going to save millions of lives in the coming years. They're harmless, and, if you get a brand that feels like the real thing, easy to transition to. I hope the tobacco industry takes a huge financial hit from the sale of these things because they literally prevent people from dying. That being said, when I switched to e-cigarettes, it was very easy to switch back to regular cigarettes. That "narrow…

Safer according to what study? People just assume they are safer.

I must admit I have tolerance for that bullshit. The cigs don't contain any of the dangerous chemical in a cigarette - you don't need a study to prove they are safe, you just need a decent understanding of chemistry.

But a million anti-smoking advocates don't give a shit.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#72

Post by shadowOfShadow »

bcx wrote: post #68

It is really interesting to look at this article through the lens of the PR agency/strategy that helped place it for NJOY. 1) Quotes from CEO 2) Little anecdote from Chief Marketing Officer 3) Big vision "Vaping" becomes common place. 4) Key differentiators: "building e-cigarettes that look, feel and perform like the real thing" (this is sprinkled throughout) 5) Celebrity endorsement, Big names: Peter Thiel, Brunno M…

There's been a fair number of fluff PR and guerilla marketing - even directly at HN readers - around vaping. It's likely organized and funded, etc. blah blah. How far did you have to read through this article to get any voice of someone NOT paid by the company or by the company of the author?

The whole e-cig thing is trying to re-build the signalling that real cigarettes have had instead of the self-medicating, addicted idea people have at this point. Rebellion, authenticity, ritual, nostalgia, freedom etc. vs. Addict

It must be turned into something you do in front of people to be safely contrarian. Why not just have little capsules that you can get a high dose rush from that essentially is minimally enveloped nicotine? Just enough toying to get it straight to the blood stream?

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#73

Post by fbellag »

dhughes wrote: post #65
pvnick wrote: post #32

E-Cigarettes are going to save millions of lives in the coming years. They're harmless, and, if you get a brand that feels like the real thing, easy to transition to. I hope the tobacco industry takes a huge financial hit from the sale of these things because they literally prevent people from dying. That being said, when I switched to e-cigarettes, it was very easy to switch back to regular cigarettes. That "narrow…

Safer according to what study? People just assume they are safer.

Yes, I know I do assume they are safer.

If the ecig industry were regulated, then we could make sure the liquid has no or minimal side effects.

In my country it is worse because ecigs are forbidden (given that uncertainity), so we have a black market for ecigs, making the quality of the liquids even more quetionable.

I know tobacco is really bad, and I have doubts about ecig. So, I give the benefit of the doubt, as it is little probability it is worse.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#74

Post by mistercow »

dhughes wrote: post #65
pvnick wrote: post #32

E-Cigarettes are going to save millions of lives in the coming years. They're harmless, and, if you get a brand that feels like the real thing, easy to transition to. I hope the tobacco industry takes a huge financial hit from the sale of these things because they literally prevent people from dying. That being said, when I switched to e-cigarettes, it was very easy to switch back to regular cigarettes. That "narrow…

Safer according to what study? People just assume they are safer.

No. There are numerous studies demonstrating that they are safer. Here's one: http://publichealth.drexel.edu/SiteData/docs/ms08/f903492642... . Here's another: http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2013/03/05/tobac...

Also, without direct evidence or rigorous analysis it would still be preposterous that a mixture of nicotine, fragrances, propylene glycol, and vegetable glycerine would be anywhere near as harmful to the lungs as cigarette smoke. There is a difference between "just assuming" and applying common sense.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#75

Post by praxeologist »

300bps wrote: post #66
praxeologist wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2009, the FDA tested some ecigs from China and found traces of DEG. This was used to raise fear, yet the amount of DEG was within the FDA's own tolerances as "safe". You probably use myriad products from China which aren't highly scrutinized and aren't up in arms about the safety of those. I have an ecig company and the ingredients in my liquid are 100% American sourced. I have never worked for a tobacco company.…

I am not surprised at the level of spin coming from someone whose livelihood comes in part from e-cigarettes. You dismiss the FDA study (summarized here http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/PublicHealthFocus/ucm173146.ht... ) by saying it was "ecigs from China". But the study says it was two leading e-cig makers. I have an ecig company and the ingredients in my liquid are 100% American sourced That's kind of like saying, "M…

"Leading ecig makers" are fraudsters in my opinion. They are selling whitelabel Chinese junk at huge margins. They make false claims about their sub-1ml liquid in pre-filled cartridges being equivalent to 2 packs of cigs. They are marketing hacks and aren't actually innovating, unlike my company.

The FDA tested the liquid composition of these Chinese cartridges and yes, one was supposedly contaminated. I get my propylene glycol from Dow, not a random Chinese source. Just because one company cut corners and sold a contaminated product shouldn't incriminate those who do assure quality.

You're conveniently ignoring that the DEG found is within the FDA's own guidelines as safe anyhow. It sounds scary to tell people that DEG and PG are ingredients in antifreeze and ignore that PG is also in those Mio water shots people use.

>That's kind of like saying, "My product is 100% natural."

Strawman. I just said I source my ingredients from America and huge, trusted companies like Dow. I said nothing about being 100% natural. By the way, propylene glycol is highly antibacterial and it was considered to pump it into the air of hospitals during the 50's. It is also a common diluent in things like asthma inhalers.

Yes, I am dismissing these bullet points from the FDA because they are crafted to evoke fear. Here's another example:

"Tobacco-specific impurities suspected of being harmful to humans—anabasine, myosmine, and β-nicotyrine—were detected in a majority of the samples tested."

These "are detected" in nicotine patches and gum, actually at a higher level based on intake than ecigs. The amount of these in all cases is so small to not raise any concern.

>I'm going to trust the FDA over you.

I bet you trust the NSA too. I follow all the research and am capable of having an honest discussion of the facts but clearly you are not.

edit: There's a lot about the FDA statement here too - http://casaa.org/uploads/8_Biggest_Electronic_Cigarette_Myth...

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#76

Post by tomjen3 »

danpalmer wrote: post #33

If I smoked, it certainly wouldn't be something I would show off to others readily or be proud of in any way, I'd see it as an embarrassment. Even if these are safer, I still consider them to be anti-social. I'm not a smoker, but I can't see why e-cigarettes should be anything more than a way to help stop smoking.

Why not? If the are not dangerous to others, what is the big deal? If it is just an image thing, we have an advertising industry quite good at changing those images.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#77

Post by hristov »

pvnick wrote: post #32

E-Cigarettes are going to save millions of lives in the coming years. They're harmless, and, if you get a brand that feels like the real thing, easy to transition to. I hope the tobacco industry takes a huge financial hit from the sale of these things because they literally prevent people from dying. That being said, when I switched to e-cigarettes, it was very easy to switch back to regular cigarettes. That "narrow…

1. E-cigarettes are not harmless and I wish people would stop perpetuating that lie. It is not clear exactly how harmful they are, but they are not harmless.

2. Ecig marketers are trying to push this story line of e-cigs vs the tobacco industry. It is mostly bs as the major ecig company blu is owned by a major tobacco company and every other major tobacco company has an ecig line now. The ecig industry is the tobacco industry.

I am very happy for you that you were able to quit. And it seems to me that is the only way.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#78

Post by ahelwer »

300bps wrote: post #54
ahallock wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am starting to see people puffing on these stupid e-cigarettes in restaurants that ban cigarette smoking. Ad hominem. Plus, just because something resembles smoking does not mean you should conflate the two, "poisoning the well." > When you say something to them they invariably try to "educate" you on what an e-cigarette is and how it's different Condescending and derisive. > The FDA is collecting reports of adve…

Ad hominem Criticizing someone's behavior is not an ad-hominem. You really don't seem to know what ad-hominem means at all. This should help you: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem Condescending and derisive. Ironically, it is condescending and derisive that they are trying to educate me about e-cigarettes. I'll check it out, but from that intro you're probably seeking confirmation bias Did you just read a W…

I think you misunderstood his intentions. You see, fallacies are like Harry Potter spells except their Latin names produce crushing arguments instead of magical effects. You are now engaged in a duel and must respond with your own invocations. This is how debates are conducted.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#79

Post by mistercow »

tluyben2 wrote: post #11

A lot of smokers I know switched to these things. They 'smoke' (is that the proper word with such an e-cig?) far more than they did before. Some of them use them every second they have nothing todo with one of their hands, which basically means they're puffing most of their waking day. I hope for them these things don't turn out to be as bad as/worse than normal cigs...

They've already been studied, and they are clearly far, far less harmful than ordinary cigarettes. As for the more constant usage, it's definitely a problem, and one that will need some creativity to solve. I don't buy the explanation that you're getting less nicotine from it. People who use high-concentration liquid seem to have just as much as a problem with it as people who don't. As for the MAOI explanation: I've known people who use MAOIs and ecigs at the same time. They exhibit the same behavior.

What I think is happening is this: With a classical cigarette, there's a clear beginning and end. With an e-cig there isn't. You're getting a dopamine reward every time you hit it, and there's no cue to stop. My recommendation to anyone starting on ecigs would therefore be to start with a very low nicotine concentration, and stay there.

If you want to avoid this effect, that is. If you don't care (and there doesn't appear to be a health reason to care), then I just wouldn't worry about it.

Re: The E-Cigarette Industry, Waiting to Exhale

#80

Post by praxeologist »

hershel wrote: post #52

Since people here talk about the difference of e-cigs and cigarettes , i.e. the lack of effects on MAOI, have anybody tried any juice that claims to have that effect on MAOI, for example "aroma ejuice" ? How were the results for you ? And does anybody know about research or regulation of this types of ejuices ? And since those same MAOI affecting compounds(probably beta carbolates) found in tobacco ,are found in brew…

Beta-carboline MAOI's were originally hypothesized to be what is important for those who feel something is missing with nicotine-only eliquid. After 3 years of working on this, I can tell you that this is not true. What's important is the other "minor tobacco alkaloids" like anatabine, anabasine, myosimine, etc.

Beta-carboline MAOI's, like the minor alkaloids, do have a potentiating effect with nicotine and therefore increase satisfaction or the potential for addiction; however, these MAOI's are pyrosynthesized (created by burning) 20-40x. This means that these MAOI's are not a significant component of a WTA eliquid or non-burned tobacco like the snus many people turn to for the "something missing".

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