NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#31

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 10:47 PM UTC

I can understand why "world leaders" would be frustrated by this, but much better them than us. This activity is at least plausibly within NSA's purview. Also, most of these leaders have less at risk to the NSA threat than do USA residents. It isn't as though NSA will sic the Drug Warriors, the IP Mafia, BATF, ICE, or EPA on leaders of other sovereign nations based on its observation of their communications. Whereas we're definitely in those crosshairs.

There are exceptions! If your nation could plausibly be on deck for the next military-industrial complex fundraising activity, you might want your leaders to secure their communications against NSA. Of course, if they're not doing anything wrong, they might want that fact to be observed, on the off chance it might make a difference.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#32

Post by isaacdl » Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 10:48 PM UTC

lallysingh wrote: post #17

isaacdl wrote: post #12

This is honestly the revelation that I worry about least in these NSA leaks. Isn't foreign surveillance basically the raison d'etre for the NSA?

It may be one of the largest motivating factors in changing NSA practices, however. Pissed partners can lead to loss of trade, and the NSA suddenly becomes a campaign issue for the next round.

Hmm. That's a really good point, hadn't occurred to me. Good for us I guess, although I still don't think we can really lambaste them for doing something that's directly in their "charter". (As opposed to all the domestic surveillance, etc!)

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#33

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 10:55 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #27

sinak wrote: post #10

A note to say that the Stop Watching Us coalition rally is now just two days away. If you're on the east coast, it's not too late to attend. If you're interested, you can find out more here: https://rally.stopwatching.us/ Privacy is one of the hardest things to get folks riled up about. It erodes slowly, and for "good" reasons, like defending the country against terrorism. But privacy is critical to a meaningful demo…

Thanks for posting this - it's the most important political topic of this generation. If I was anywhere close I'd attend. I started chatting with a guy at a local bar over lunch the other day. The topic turned to surveillance and Snowden. Turned out my conversational partner was an off-duty cop. He thought Snowden was a traitor, and that the surveillance was totally justified because, "It makes protecting the innocen…

Nothing in that story does anything to suggest that joining law enforcement changed that person, or changes people in general.

You seem to just be assuming that before he joined law enforcement, he had an attitude more similar to yours.

(And then there's the problem of generalization from this anecdote on top of that.)

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#34

Post by AsymetricCom » Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 10:58 PM UTC

bparsons wrote: post #25

ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

These are close, close allies though. We aren't talking about North Korea. We are talking about countries who have deep diplomatic and military ties. The reason why you wouldn't do something like this, is because there was a damn good chance that it would leak out, mortally wounding your relationship with these people. Secondly, the utility of this particular SIGINT program is highly questionable. What is the ROI on…

Israel is a pretty close ally.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#35

Post by _b8r0 » Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 11:09 PM UTC

clubhi wrote: post #7

ethana wrote: post #4

US Foreign Policy: How to turn friends into enemies and isolate yourself from the world

Well to be fair, the Germans did try to kill us all.

Not everyone. And to be fair it was only twice, and it was a long time ago, and it's not like Germany was the only country to try.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#36

Post by pvnick » Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 11:12 PM UTC

conductor wrote: post #19

This is the top comment on the Reddit thread: "They went after high ranking military officers . They went after members of congress . The Senate and the House - especially on the intelligence committees, and on the armed services committees and judicial. But they went after other ones too. They went after lawyers and law firms . Heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges . One of the judges is now sitting…

I remember this post being made here on HN around when the revelations first started coming out and we were still trying to collect ourselves and adjust to the new realities of omnipresent surveillance. It was on the front page and had a ton of upvotes. I really hope that Snowden has evidence of this. Whether he does or not is just about make-it-or-break-it for whether we'll see any real reform.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#37

Post by _b8r0 » Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 11:12 PM UTC

omonra wrote: post #20

I think we need a bit of context here. US is the hegemon. Therefore it's not reasonable to apply same expectations of how it acts as we do pleasant little countries like Norway or Netherlands (who are probably only independent because US defended them against Germans & Soviets).

You're right. Perhaps the US should be held to a higher standard than it's allies who are next door to their enemies. After all, the US is bordered on no sides by anyone other than cooperative, friendly countries, or countries that are less cooperative but have a US presence.

As for countries like Norway and the Netherlands being independent because the US defended them against Germans and Soviets, that's not strictly true. It was a team effort on all sides, and the team America eventually joined won, with great thanks and a great debt to the US effort, which as I understand was paid off.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#38

Post by krapp » Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 11:14 PM UTC

conductor wrote: post #29

ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

But we are not at war with everyone, and those countries involved (like Germany, France and Italy) are our partners, economical and military partners. I can accept doing SIGINT on non-friendly countries and organizations but is it correct to spy on your own people and partner countries?

>but is it correct to spy on your own people and partner countries?

It's rude, but I think to a degree it is acceptable, and probably expected. Friendly countries spy on each other all the time. For one thing, friendly countries might not remain friendly forever.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#39

Post by krapp » Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 11:14 PM UTC

npalli wrote: post #14

What is the strategy here? Of releasing information about NSA activities with foreign nations? Seems like it is mixing a potentially illegal activity (domestic spying) with their designated job. Doesn't every country try to do this. The NSA personnel could very well have undergone considerable risk to get this sort of thing going on. On the other hand, Joe public sees Snowden fleeing and chilling out in Russia/China…

I think the Guardian is just trying to ride the NSA gravy train at this point.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#40

Post by jsmcgd » Thu, Oct 24, 2013, 11:21 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

The US public expects the NSA to devote its resources to protecting it from foreign threats, like terrorists, not its allies.