Live data from Hacker News

Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

pbs.org

161–170 of 414 posts

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#161

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

[deleted]

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Denmark, they prevent infections in chicken houses by thoroughly cleaning them, then using techniques developed for clean rooms to prevent infections. In the US, we let them wade in their own filth and pump them full of antibiotics. We should just make it flat out illegal to use antibiotics across entire herds of livestock. We should also fine doctors for prescribing antibiotics to patients with a viral infection…

>We [sic] should just make it flat out illegal to... >We [sic] should also fine doctors for... Why is violence an appropriate response to these non-violent issues?

So if it had been "making it illegal for corporations to spill contaminants in local water supplies", this would also be considered violence, in your eyes?

I, for one, think we should pass laws that prevent people from doing harmful things to society..

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#163

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

> Only human beings have science labs and clinical research studies to come up with new defenses against the thoughtless, largely immobile threats from other living things

We're giving bacteria (which reproduce rapidly and mutate quickly) the perfect natural science lab to mutate and select for antibiotic resistance. There are 10^14 bacterial cells in the human body vs only 10^13 human cells [1]. Their reproductive cycle is over one million times faster than ours.

We're creating the perfect conditions for rapid evolution of these organisms. This system is executed by billions of billions of bacteria continuously and we're trying to combat that evolution with a few thousand humans in labs.

It seems to me that the take-away here is we need better engineering of our own solutions and we need to find a way stop enabling this rapid evolution of bacteria.

[1] http://dx.doi.org/10.1146%2Fannurev.mi.31.100177.000543

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#164
post #86

The anthropomorphism of bacterial evolution makes the article hard to follow for the layman (me). Can someone familiar with bacterial evolution please explain to me how the use of antibiotics leads to superbugs? I am clearly misunderstanding something. I was under the impression that in a population of bacteria, genes express themselves in any number of random ways. If we expose the bacterial culture to antibiotics,…

[deleted]

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#165
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly, everyone needs to stop washing their hands, or bacteria will develop soap immunity. And then what will we do?

Killing bacteria is easy. The trick is killing bacteria without harming ourselves. Soaps can be massively more "brutal" in terms of the mechanisms that destroy bacteria than what antibiotics can, and so the evolutionary steps that would have to occur for resistance are vastly larger, and would mean changing them in many different directions. E.g. it does not help if a bacteria can survive a soap if it is still physic…

I agree with you, but we need to be cautious with washing hands. The CDC have a nice document about "when is clean too clean?" which mentions the problems with people who have to clean their hand frequently. Damaged skin can harbour bacteria, and can make it harder to remove those bacteria.

(http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/7/2/70-0225_article.htm)

> Skin hygiene, particularly of the hands, is a primary mechanism for reducing contact and fecal-oral transmission of infectious agents. Widespread use of antimicrobial products has prompted concern about emergence of resistance to antiseptics and damage to the skin barrier associated with frequent washing. This article reviews evidence for the relationship between skin hygiene and infection, the effects of washing on skin integrity, and recommendations for skin care practices.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Denmark, they prevent infections in chicken houses by thoroughly cleaning them, then using techniques developed for clean rooms to prevent infections. In the US, we let them wade in their own filth and pump them full of antibiotics. We should just make it flat out illegal to use antibiotics across entire herds of livestock. We should also fine doctors for prescribing antibiotics to patients with a viral infection…

>We [sic] should just make it flat out illegal to... >We [sic] should also fine doctors for... Why is violence an appropriate response to these non-violent issues?

Most people would consider violence an acceptable response to defending yourself against violence.

If people who abuse antibiotics will lead to us having no good antibiotics, then they will inflict extreme violence on the entire human race.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of those, though, two of the threats were real and mitigated before the impact could be realized (nuclear war and Y2K), and one of them is a fairly recent scientific theory that is still trying to be understood (climate change).

In the 80s we acted faster on freon/CFCs than we have on climate change in the ensuing 30 years, with less danger to human life and less evidence. The only thing that's new about climate change as a scientific theory is the annual increase in the pile of evidence that it's happening and we're the cause of it.

Freon and CFC's were easier to replace.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#168

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

Thinking about the ideas you bring up.. it seems we humans have been playing on the same level as the bacteria upto now. Greedy algorithm vs greedy algorithm. Could we perhaps use certain antibiotics that will force bacteria to evolve in a way that opens up a certain weak spot which we will then allow to spread through their population before we step in and wipe them out using this forced back-door? This simple 1-2 plan seems enough to really cause evolution a problem if humans can coordinate enough to pull it off (and a plausible plan appears, details..).

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#169
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly, everyone needs to stop washing their hands, or bacteria will develop soap immunity. And then what will we do?

You've been voted down but there is actually a school of thought that excess use of antibacterials and generally going "overboard" (whatever that means exactly) with preventing children from being exposed to natural flora can potentially result in weakened immune systems. There's a lot of pseudo-science in these claims but that doesn't mean there's absolutely no truth to them. It would probably be hard to do a study…

Ignoring the snark (of the parent comment), I've often wondered why it was bad to use anti-bacterial soap (and antibiotics in general), but not regular soap, since both leave some amount of bacteria behind, which presumably have genetics making them more resistant to the pressure. I think part of the answer is that its just not possible to evolve resistance to any amount of soap and hand washing, unlike resistance to the targeted mechanisms of an antibacterial compound.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now we have no weapons; we're helpless and the world is again going to be a scary place where a cut or a scrape can land you in a hospital or in a mortuary. Perhaps most terrifying is that the mere act of hospitalization will likely be the highest vector of transmission of nearly untreatable infections. Go in for a routine procedure and end up in the isolation ward due to some highly infectious, deadly disease.

This is what I don't completely understand. Why has no one developed a disinfectant spray that hospitals can apply ad-nauseum (pun intended, the smell ideally wouldn't make people nauseous) all over the hospital? Or, do I not understand the vectors properly? The way I perceive these stories is that hospitals are actually extremely dirty on a microbial level (as is most of the world), it's just counter-intuitive becau…

> Why has no one developed a disinfectant spray that hospitals can apply ad-nauseum (pun intended, the smell ideally wouldn't make people nauseous) all over the hospital?

We have robots that do that now.

http://loyolamedicine.org/newswire/news/uv-light-robots-kill...

Post reply on HN