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Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

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Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#151

Post by klmr »

javajosh wrote: post #32

This is very serious. But consider the worst-case outcome: No more anti-biotics, for anyone. That is, we go back to the era before anti-biotics, life in the 1920's. Maybe mortality rates will go back to that era, and maybe higher. But thankfully we aren't talking about a plague. At least not yet. Recently I had a wisdom tooth extracted. The dentist prescribed anti-biotics, but (unknown to him) I didn't take them. I h…

I think you seriously underestimate just how many lives antibiotics save. Sure, for your tooth extraction they were completely unnecessary and your doctor is either a bit of an idiot or there were other compelling reasons to suspect that antibiotics might be beneficial. But healthcare-wise I would not want to go back to the 1920, no sir. Without antibiotics, medical routine procedures will become life-threatening again (that said, I don’t share the article’s pessimism; yes, it’s bad – but there will be solutions).

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#152

Post by vidarh »

tedunangst wrote: post #87
tokenadult wrote: post #70

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

Clearly, everyone needs to stop washing their hands, or bacteria will develop soap immunity. And then what will we do?

Killing bacteria is easy. The trick is killing bacteria without harming ourselves. Soaps can be massively more "brutal" in terms of the mechanisms that destroy bacteria than what antibiotics can, and so the evolutionary steps that would have to occur for resistance are vastly larger, and would mean changing them in many different directions.

E.g. it does not help if a bacteria can survive a soap if it is still physically flushed away.

We also have a massive escalation ladder for external detergents beyond basic soaps that include a near infinite number of substances of increasing brutality than our arsenal of antibiotics. Essentially anything that will not harm us much with relatively limited exposure, yet will physically disrupt small organism. We can wash our hands in bleach. Or various acids. Or any of numerous agents that are massively disruptive on biological organisms through basic chemistry or even by being physically abrasive.

We don't even particularly need to care if we kill off a fairly substantial number of our own skin cells in the process.

If we had the same arsenal available for fighting bacteria internally as what we can safely apply externally, we'd be in a fantastic position.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#154

Post by dylandrop »

rodw wrote: post #121
stcredzero wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Denmark, they prevent infections in chicken houses by thoroughly cleaning them, then using techniques developed for clean rooms to prevent infections. In the US, we let them wade in their own filth and pump them full of antibiotics. We should just make it flat out illegal to use antibiotics across entire herds of livestock. We should also fine doctors for prescribing antibiotics to patients with a viral infection…

The function of antibiotics in agriculture isn't to prevent infection (or at least, not primarily to prevent infection) but to fatten the animals up for slaughter.

I still don't think that justifies the use of them.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#155

Post by sbirchall »

tokenadult wrote: post #70

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

Are you aware of the writings of Ernst Mayr[1]?

In his book 'Toward a New Philosophy of Biology" there is a chapter on this very topic - how teleonomy has pervaded almost all of Biological science and how teleological statements, which are just plain incorrect, are the major way in which Biological processes are explained. I think this has only increased in severity and effect as we have consolidated our systems level view of the world and I've often been in awe of the general ignorance toward fundamental principals such as this.

My own personal take on the situation?

I think it is a very dangerous and ignorant thing for our species to continue with it's genetic hegemony of our ecosystems, creating vast evolutionary plateaus where the slightest advantage can run amok and adapt into something that could wipe out entire species. There is _probably_ enough genetic diversity in humans to avoid this, but I doubt so amongst our crops and livestock.

But I share your optimism/pragmatism in that I feel our human ingenuity will overcome, and if so then the prizes are great indeed. From new drug delivery systems and entirely new ways of treating illnesses, to a more mature approach to our interactions with the biological inheritance we have here on Earth 1.0 - I would like to see our crops and livestock diversified, farming practices overhauled to focus on the long term and most importantly more serious study devoted to analysing and utilising the solutions evolution has put in front of us for the taking.

Not only are these things (IMHO) essential to the prolonged survival of our species, they are also achievable. The organic farming movement took only a generation to go from grass roots to industry standard (and I know there is all sorts of controversy surrounding it but the point is that the industry IS open to disruption), here in the UK there is a debate simmering under the surface of the popular media that could end in more wild deer providing venison for the pot, Canadian geese too, and everyone knows of the whole insect protein debate, and the practical applications of bio-tech and nano-tech are only getting more interesting as the fields begin to find their feet.

[1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Mayr]

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#156

Post by architgupta »

ghaff wrote: post #119
tedunangst wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly, everyone needs to stop washing their hands, or bacteria will develop soap immunity. And then what will we do?

You've been voted down but there is actually a school of thought that excess use of antibacterials and generally going "overboard" (whatever that means exactly) with preventing children from being exposed to natural flora can potentially result in weakened immune systems. There's a lot of pseudo-science in these claims but that doesn't mean there's absolutely no truth to them. It would probably be hard to do a study…

You could probably compare kids in the developing world versus kids in the developed world.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#157

Post by penguindev »

gibwell wrote: post #71
mesaaz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is reason for guarded optimism if we can eliminate, or at least drastically reduce, irresponsible use of antibiotics: The capacity to resist antibiotics extracts a small metabolic/competitive "tax" on bacteria. In the presence of antibiotics, the costs of this tax are outweighed by the obvious benefits of antibiotic resistance. In an environment without antibiotics, the costs of the tax outweigh their benefits,…

We can't discipline ourselves because there are giant vested interests in selling antibiotics and none in resisting buying them.

I don't know why you were down voted; you had a logical argument. There's no greed like short term greed.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#158

Post by Timothee »

bradleyjg wrote: post #85

It's an insane world we live in where all the measures that should be used to control the distribution of antibiotics exist, but they are used instead for opiates. I'm not saying opiates addiction isn't a genuine problem, but it's a largely individual one. There's no widespread negative externalities to prescribing opiates to a patient. Antibiotics on the other hand, present a classic limited pool resource allocation…

Antibiotics on the other hand, present a classic limited pool resource allocation problem

While reading the article, that's what I was thinking: even if I limit my antibiotics use, it won't help me since this affects everyone, not just people who abuse antibiotics…

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#159

Post by icambron »

mistercow wrote: post #138
tokenadult wrote: post #70

The interviewed expert has very good credentials and clinical experience to be talking about what he is talking about, and his warnings should be taken seriously. But even at that, the fallacious teleological language he uses about biological evolution by natural selection suggests a way out of this problem. When he says, "Bacteria, like any living organism, want to survive," and "So anything that we do to try and ki…

I'm slightly bugged by "desire" type language because it does actually cause problems in how laymen think about evolution. It's not uncommon to hear them make the mistake of thinking evolution will "think ahead". But the bigger problem I have with it is the "anything we do ... bacteria will eventually discover". Some problems are just very difficult to evolve around, and it's hard to predict what they'll be even if y…

Or to put it a different way: extinction happens all the time. Entire branches of evolution are lost to its inability to adjust to rapid change. That bacteria evolve doesn't mean we can't beat them.

Re: Dr. Arjun Srinivasan: We’ve Reached “The End of Antibiotics, Period”

#160

Post by kintamanimatt »

ctdonath wrote: post #148
kintamanimatt wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not violence. They're not being beaten with a crowbar.

It's the threat thereof that persuades compliance. If you try hard enough to do & keep doing something illegal, there is no limit which the state is unwilling to go to in coercing compliance.

Nobody's gonna beat a vet with a rubber hose because they gave a cow antibiotics.
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