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Apple Patent on Touch Typing, Multitouch Upheld; Allows Ban on Most Androids

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Re: Apple Patent on Touch Typing, Multitouch Upheld; Allows Ban on Most Androids

#41

Post by kunai »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #40

As I type on my MacBook Pro, I also wonder at what point we as a community are going to start voting with our wallets against Apple and the extent to which they are abusing the broken US patent system. Of course it's only rational to expect that they will use any means at their disposal to get a competitive advantage, but that doesn't mean that we must reserve moral judgment. For me, Apple has already moved into "pre…

People don't care about their despotic and toxic environment for the little guys or competitors because they have the best products.

That seems to be changing as Android increases in marketshare every day, and Ultrabooks are taking off while Mac marketshare generally has remained stagnant over the past 8 quarters.

So, it seems like we already are moving away from Apple. The only thing they can do is now rely on petty lawsuits that damage their reputation in the engineer/tech community, which will hurt them in the long run even more so. The best way to fight it is to fund startups that have a focus on open systems and a proven commitment to free open software. Currently, the the hardware market is controlled by a few very, very large OEMs. Slowly, though, PCB and fab is opening up to many more people besides Samsung, LG, et al. Especially with Kickstarter, I don't see it likely that we will still have a hardware oligopoly in the next 5 years. More boutique manufacturers will spring up, and like it has for desktops, mobile hardware will open up.

The next step after that is to reform the broken US patent system so gorillas like Apple and Microsoft can't abuse it.

Re: Apple Patent on Touch Typing, Multitouch Upheld; Allows Ban on Most Androids

#42

Post by [deleted] »

venomsnake wrote: post #30
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure this is much to do with companies patent trolling. Apple developed the tech and use it, that's pretty different. You can disagree with the specific patent (and I think in this case there's a pretty good case for that) or with patents in general, but this isn't, by my understanding of the term, patent trolling.

The patents are disclosure in exchange for state granted monopoly. Or they should be - you do something amazing. No one can figure out how to do it - you tell them and they cannot use the tech for X years. But right now people patent the end result. That is wrong.

[deleted]

Re: Apple Patent on Touch Typing, Multitouch Upheld; Allows Ban on Most Androids

#43

Post by josephlord »

baldfat wrote: post #7

The idea that a keyboard used with a finger is even Patentable???? How is this even close to being something that needs to be protected? So the visualization of anything is a patent worthy idea? There has to be prior art in the hundreds of touch typing? It is so frustrating knowing the Prior work of Microsoft Surface before the iPhone with multi-touch and pinch to zoom. I would love all Android phones to just stop be…

> The idea that a keyboard used with a finger is even Patentable???? ...

This patent isn't for that.

> It is so frustrating knowing the Prior work of Microsoft Surface before the iPhone with multi-touch and pinch to zoom.

I assume any work published prior to the priority date of the patent (could be as early as April 2007 based on the filing date) would have been presented by those who requested the re-examination.

> ... The very idea that this was something invalid in September and now passed through smells of some outside pressure.

This patent has never been decided invalid. The First Office Action (which suggested invalidity) is the very first stage of invalidation and is made before there is any defence of the patent and frequently claims suggested invalid there are later decided to be valid. I don't think that the stage that has just determined the patent is valid would have been the final stage of invalidation (despite being called final).

Note also that as I read the claims [IANALATISNLA] if your touchscreen device naively translates single or multiple touches without using heuristics based on the initial movement to decide whether it is scrolling/rotating/something else then this patent would not affect you.

Re: Apple Patent on Touch Typing, Multitouch Upheld; Allows Ban on Most Androids

#44

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

chroem wrote: post #39
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say the same thing about software and hardware patents, though. What incentive will any company have to innovate if they're constantly getting copied? IMO too many people let their emotions dictate their thoughts about business -- Company X is big enough, so it doesn't deserve patents. Company Y sues everyone in the sun for using their technology; what a horrible company! For every high-profile case like these, tho…

Fine, let's use your example of the small business. Suppose that this company invents a revolutionary technology, such as a cure for cancer or a teleporter. That company is perfectly within its rights to just sit on the technology for 20 years . Even if it does decide to produce the technology, there is no way that it could keep up with demand, so it ends up shipping very small numbers of a very expensive and exclusi…

Does that make patents bad or patents in their current form?

What if you restrict them to organisations using them in at least one actively marketed and supported product?

What if you make it so a company has to show genuine investment to be granted a patent?

What if you raise the bar on what constitutes innovation to cover a certain degree of complexity?

What if you make it so all patents have to be licensed to a FRAND (genuinely fair, not the current "fair") basis?

Re: Apple Patent on Touch Typing, Multitouch Upheld; Allows Ban on Most Androids

#45

Post by josephlord »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #40

As I type on my MacBook Pro, I also wonder at what point we as a community are going to start voting with our wallets against Apple and the extent to which they are abusing the broken US patent system. Of course it's only rational to expect that they will use any means at their disposal to get a competitive advantage, but that doesn't mean that we must reserve moral judgment. For me, Apple has already moved into "pre…

And where would you go if you were to boycott Apple over the actions you deem to be "abusing the broken US patent system".

I think Google/Motorola and Samsung have behaved far worse when they attempted to obtain injuctions and excessive licensing fees over patents that they had committed to license on FRAND terms.

Microsoft has a horrible history of anticompetive behavior.

Maybe Blackberry phone and linux based computer would be an acceptable route although I'm not sure how long Blackberry will be making competitive products and there is a fairly limited choice of PCs shipping without Windows.

Re: Apple Patent on Touch Typing, Multitouch Upheld; Allows Ban on Most Androids

#46

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

Oletros wrote: post #24
camus2 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it seems Android is becoming a risky "enterprise" for OEMs, after the MSFT tax on Android, OEMs are not willing to pay an Apple tax. Google should have cleared any potential issue, but they are too bold. They tried when they bought Motorola but this strategy is not working that well.

And how they can clear any potential issue?

I think the implication is that they work around the patents or license them.

There are obviously a load of problems with that - the later is problematic as Apple have shown little interest in licensing much of this stuff. The former because some of them cover genuinely useful stuff that compromises the product if you remove it.

They may also have decided that Samsung make fortunes so perhaps they could deal with this themselves...

Re: Apple Patent on Touch Typing, Multitouch Upheld; Allows Ban on Most Androids

#47

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

josephlord wrote: post #45
acjohnson55 wrote: post #40

As I type on my MacBook Pro, I also wonder at what point we as a community are going to start voting with our wallets against Apple and the extent to which they are abusing the broken US patent system. Of course it's only rational to expect that they will use any means at their disposal to get a competitive advantage, but that doesn't mean that we must reserve moral judgment. For me, Apple has already moved into "pre…

And where would you go if you were to boycott Apple over the actions you deem to be "abusing the broken US patent system". I think Google/Motorola and Samsung have behaved far worse when they attempted to obtain injuctions and excessive licensing fees over patents that they had committed to license on FRAND terms. Microsoft has a horrible history of anticompetive behavior. Maybe Blackberry phone and linux based compu…

That would be BlackBerry whose current value is largely in the patents they hold...

Re: Apple Patent on Touch Typing, Multitouch Upheld; Allows Ban on Most Androids

#49

Post by shmerl »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #40

As I type on my MacBook Pro, I also wonder at what point we as a community are going to start voting with our wallets against Apple and the extent to which they are abusing the broken US patent system. Of course it's only rational to expect that they will use any means at their disposal to get a competitive advantage, but that doesn't mean that we must reserve moral judgment. For me, Apple has already moved into "pre…

> I also wonder at what point we as a community are going to start voting with our wallets against Apple and the extent to which they are abusing the broken US patent system.

Good question. I never used any Apple products and never will. While they definitely made others try to compete with them, at the same time they held back many important technologies. For example audio and video codecs. Why don't we see open codecs gaining wider adoption in hardware and on the Web? Apple is the culprit.

Try to find a hardware player which supports Vorbis (and also has characteristics that you need), or try to explain to an Apple user while your OGG/Vorbis audio or WebM video doesn't play in their iPod or Safari.

It's quite irritating when some control the technology because of their greed and hold back the innovation which they claim to embrace.

Re: Apple Patent on Touch Typing, Multitouch Upheld; Allows Ban on Most Androids

#50

Post by aetherson »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #31
ignostic wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinions on patents are still evolving, but I tend to see drug patents as a good thing that needs reform. I know it's a bit of a tangent, but would someone mind explaining a little? My main concern is that we can't expect anyone to invest m/billions in necessary drug research if they can be copied the instant the drug shows success. The R&D cost per new drug brought to market is often between 1-12 billion.[1] Even…

I say the same thing about software and hardware patents, though. What incentive will any company have to innovate if they're constantly getting copied? IMO too many people let their emotions dictate their thoughts about business -- Company X is big enough, so it doesn't deserve patents. Company Y sues everyone in the sun for using their technology; what a horrible company! For every high-profile case like these, tho…

Empirically, we know that in, say, the 1990's, when hardly any software patents happened, software companies still innovated. Are you trying to suggest that there has been some kind of fundamental economic shift since then that has made innovation impossible in the absence of patents? What is that shift?

What are these stories about small businesses and new inventors getting screwed by people who steal their ideas? It seems to me that you're the one arguing based on emotion -- your post is full of dire warnings without any attempt to back them up.

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