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Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

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Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#71
post #7

I actually like asking math questions on interviews. It shows how people approach a problem. Asking code questions in an arbitrary interview setting shows just about nothing - no access to a reference doc, somebody peering over your shoulder. Heck, I couldn't code my way out of a wet paperback in that setting. Certainly, asking only math questions is stupid as well, people should know at least a little about the stuf…

Asking math questions might exclude some good candidates. I know more than a couple very productive programmers that did not go through a formal CS education. Asking math questions to those candidates could even scare them for no reason. I hired people who had no idea about Lagrange Multipliers but were able to ship code in various languages and even learn new paradigms when necessary. There are not only smart people…

Everything might exclude some good candidates, right? With the possible exception of a lengthy internship or "trial period."

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#72
I agree. But for a different reason: I'm shit at maths puzzles.

I just don't have the experience or tools or interest for them.

And yet, somehow, in 20 years of business geekery I've never come across a problem I can't solve.

Maybe when writing Tetris for J2ME I would have saved myself 10 minutes googling if I'd had the experience to realise that right angle based matrix translations don't require fp maths and maybe when writing financial indicators, I'd have saved myself half a day if I hadn't had to look up integrals but this sort of stuff is definitely in the minority as far as my experience goes.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#73

I agree. But for a different reason: I'm shit at maths puzzles. I just don't have the experience or tools or interest for them. And yet, somehow, in 20 years of business geekery I've never come across a problem I can't solve. Maybe when writing Tetris for J2ME I would have saved myself 10 minutes googling if I'd had the experience to realise that right angle based matrix translations don't require fp maths and maybe…

I don't play Sudoku, I don't solve puzzles. I don't want to solve mathematical puzzles. I just want to deal with system and deal with security and none of them requires me to understand the tricks to solve a puzzle. Sure I can learn some cool algorithms but no thanks. I don't want to solve puzzles. Exactly.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#74
After much experimentation giving interviews for server side positions, I've come to favor questions that involve routine real world problems that can be handled in increasingly sophisticated ways.

One example I use is getting the candidate to write crud, list, and search controller actions for a simple category data structure. Given a basic category data model (e.g. Name, Parent), the candidate starts with the crud actions.

Crud actions aren't meant to be difficult to solve and serve as a basic screener to verify the candidate has working knowledge of the basics. The only edge case I look for the candidate to ask about is if orphaning child nodes is allowed (I.e updating parent node, deleting a node with children)

List action(s) start getting more interesting since recursion comes into play. A basic implementation of an action that can load the tree given an arbitrary category as a starting point is expected. If the candidate has some prior experience, a discussion of what performance concerns they may have with loading the category tree is a follow up question. The tree loading algorithm is then expected to be revised to handle an optional max depth parameter. An edge case I look to be considered is how to signify in the action response that a category has one or more child nodes that weren't loaded due to a depth restriction.

The search action implementation has a degree of difficulty scaled to the candidates experience level. All candidates have to write an action that returns a collection of categories matching a search string. Those with previous experience are asked about a paging solution. Senior level candidates are asked to return matching categories in a format that indicates all ancestors ( for instance: "Category 1 -> Category 1.1 -> Category 1.1.1" result for search string "1.1.1")

For an added degree of difficulty, candidates can be asked to recommend data model tweaks and algorithms supporting tree versioning requirements necessary to allow for loading the category tree's state at a given point in time.

The candidate's performance to this exercise seems to give some insight into their level of experience and ability to implement algorithms from a common real world example without having to ask much trivia or logic problems.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean is that people who enjoy programming probably tend to be smart. I haven't done any statistical surveys, but the motivational feedback loop for learning programming rewards intelligence.

I doubt that. There's a lot of people going into programming because they think a) IT is akin to playing computer games all day. b) It's easy work in a climatized office with solid pay c) The jobs are relatively secure and abundant. I've seen many people go into IT that would much better have been employed elsewhere, so I think that we, as programmers are not more intelligent on average than the rest of the populatio…

looks like the one part you said you might agree with in your very last sentence is 100% of the group that they were talking about: people who enjoy programming.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#76
1. Most IQ tests are Bullshit 2. We all know what happened to the company famous for " Who moved mount fuji" 3. Math Puzzles are good if they are of the IMO level- but these things need a lot of concentration and joy to solve- Not under stress interview conditions. 4. Expecting someone to show brilliance by solving a math puzzle in under ten twenty minutes is a lot like a public willy wagging competition 5.Even more disgusting is the semi dumb questions at Mckinsey inerviews like - "Estimate the number of mineral water bottles in London" 6. 7.In 'Jobs', Walter Issacson says Steve was never into much of these puzzles- I can understand the reason. 8. ' I think a lot of what people call intelligence just boils down to curiosity'-(great quote from an inspirational friend-http://www.flickr.com/photos/elizabethbw/8373942339/) 9. People who ask these kind of puzzles end up creating a lot of CPU without any GPU. Very Little beauty. Very Little love. Disclosure- Im a member of Mensa Inernational. No Offense meant.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#77

Our current hiring process at my startup: - After a first non-technical call, we ask the candidate to create a very small project based on our SDK. We send him the documentation and a very small sample. He can almost use every tools he wants to create that small project and, of course, we do not set any deadlines. It allows us to see how the candidate architecture his applications and it gives us a project to discuss…

I have experienced "interviews" like this from the other end. I told YC funded founders I'm not interested in their job if this is how they interview. In my opinion, it shows inability to make a decision.

I am an excellent developer, with years of experience in the industry. I know lots of technologies, and already have a great job. There is no reason for me to spend personal time writing your projects, when I would be rewarded by spending personal time on my employer's projects.

"Interviews" like this will only grab candidates with nothing better to do than to fulltime interview with your company. In my opinion, the best people already have jobs, and you're excluding them from the process.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#79
I can relate on the opposite. I am not great at those complex math problems. But, I have been coding for 15 years at >20 hours a week average. Mostly web stuff. I've built dozens of full products, that we're complex, and I generally feel like I could build anything I wanted. Every time I use a new site I can visualize how I would have built it, usually not a question of if I could; time permitting.

Yet, I have never had the balls to pursue it professionally. I build stuff and usually never launch it. I have learned several times over that marketing is not my strong suit.

That said, I'd actually like to work for a startup. Hit me up if anyone wants to talk.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt that. There's a lot of people going into programming because they think a) IT is akin to playing computer games all day. b) It's easy work in a climatized office with solid pay c) The jobs are relatively secure and abundant. I've seen many people go into IT that would much better have been employed elsewhere, so I think that we, as programmers are not more intelligent on average than the rest of the populatio…

looks like the one part you said you might agree with in your very last sentence is 100% of the group that they were talking about: people who enjoy programming.

Actually, since I'm the author of the post they're referring to I can say that the group we're referring to is "programmers" or rather "people you'd hire as a programmer" which is a superset of "people who enjoy programming." Even if you only consider people who enjoy programming I'd be very careful about calling them "more intelligent". They're probably good solvers of a certain kind of logical puzzle, but intelligence encompasses much much more than that.
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