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Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

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Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#41

Post by x0054 »

Here is an interesting idea that I had reading this. As a startup, what if you were to create a simple computer language that looked different from most other computer languages, at least somewhat different. Alternatively, just use one of the many really obscure programming languages out there, just make sure the applicant does not know it ahead of time. Give the applicant a 10-20 page reference manual for the language and ask them to make a simple program of some sort. Have them read the manual and write the program, hopefully while not looking over their shoulder, so they can relax. In the manual you give them omit one critical function or API reference, but make sure that info is available online (make it available if you made up the language). Then see what happens.

This would test programmers ability to learn a new language.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#42

Post by kenster07 »

Pitarou wrote: post #34
kenster07 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...a smart person eager to learn is a breeze compared to teaching problem solving to someone who memorized the reference manual." I would guess that there is actually significant overlap between these two groups.

Not really. Memorising the manual is the strategy of a surface learner. Surface learners can make pretty good PHP programmers, but they'll struggle with, say, passing Javascript closures. A deep learner will look for the underlying principles and abstractions. They can quickly get an overview that, even when it's fuzzy, is still accurate enough for them to know where the gaps in their knowledge are, so they can fill…

What I mean is that people who enjoy programming probably tend to be smart. I haven't done any statistical surveys, but the motivational feedback loop for learning programming rewards intelligence.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#43

Post by coreyja »

michaelpinto wrote: post #26

After reading this I have a dumb question: The person behind the post is a CS major but only played a little bit with the C programming language in college — is this pretty common these days?

I go to an Engineering school, and there are only two classes that use C and are required for my CS major. The first one is the second programming class we take and is three quarters java and one quarter C. Pretty basic stuff. The second class is Operating Systems, and is C the whole quarter. I'm pretty sure those are the only two required classes that use C. And I didn't have to take the first one cause I tested out of it with AP credit, and I didn't do C in HS. So some people will only take one class in C when they graduate.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#44

Post by dagw »

michaelpinto wrote: post #26

After reading this I have a dumb question: The person behind the post is a CS major but only played a little bit with the C programming language in college — is this pretty common these days?

Certainly at the school I went to you had quite a lot of choice over what courses you took. I imagine it would be quite possible to get a CS degree without ever touching C, especially if you took either a more math/theory approach or a more UX/HCI approach to your degree. Of course it was equally possible to spend half your degree writing operating systems and programming micro-controllers in C and assembly if that was your cup of tea.

Basically CS is a huge field and any assumption you make about someones skills just because they have a "CS degree" is almost certainly false to a greater or lesser degree.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#45

Post by bradleyjg »

morgante wrote: post #6
rdtsc wrote: post #2

Two possible reasons: 1) I think a lot of start-ups want to hire "smart" people. Because they expect the new person to eventually wear many hats. Objective-C, Java, Android, CSS, server side concurrency, monitoring. An we've all seen Hunter and Schmidt reference that tokenadult usually posts when talk about interviewing comes around and it does seem that a general mental ability test (like an IQ test) combined with a…

I think (1) is probably the primary reason, along with the fun factor I mentioned above. But honestly, why can't we just start giving IQ tests? Or at least asking for SAT scores? We shouldn't have to run through training puzzles just to prove we're smart enough to build a site.

> But honestly, why can't we just start giving IQ tests?

It's illigal. Or at least very very legally questionable.[1] Theoretically good proxies could be attacked in the same way, but there's a difference between doing something that could conceivably be the basis of a lawsuit and doing something that the Supreme Court has specifically ruled on.

[1] See Griggs v. Duke Power Co. (1971)

http://finduslaw.com/griggs-v-duke-power-co-1971-401-us-424-...

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#46

Post by angrycoder »

dpiers wrote: post #29

Hiring engineers is hard, and companies haven't really figured it out yet. Even the best companies rely on puzzles and gimmicks that often have little to do with day-to-day programming. At one company I interviewed with, I was asked to implement a queue using two stacks. At that time in my programming career, I had worked with C, C++, Obj-C, Lua, Python, JavaScript, SQL, and a handful of DSLs developing games, game d…

Exactly. "Tell me about your last project" can easily turn into a 2 hour conversation with any developer who has built anything of substance. It will tell you everything you need to know about them.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#47

Post by Xylakant »

kenster07 wrote: post #42
Pitarou wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Memorising the manual is the strategy of a surface learner. Surface learners can make pretty good PHP programmers, but they'll struggle with, say, passing Javascript closures. A deep learner will look for the underlying principles and abstractions. They can quickly get an overview that, even when it's fuzzy, is still accurate enough for them to know where the gaps in their knowledge are, so they can fill…

What I mean is that people who enjoy programming probably tend to be smart. I haven't done any statistical surveys, but the motivational feedback loop for learning programming rewards intelligence.

I doubt that. There's a lot of people going into programming because they think

a) IT is akin to playing computer games all day.

b) It's easy work in a climatized office with solid pay

c) The jobs are relatively secure and abundant.

I've seen many people go into IT that would much better have been employed elsewhere, so I think that we, as programmers are not more intelligent on average than the rest of the population. I might agree that people who enjoy programming have a knack for a certain type of intelligence and problem solving ability, but I don't think that programmers are limited to the group of people that enjoy programming.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#48

Post by clarkm »

deluxaran wrote: post #14
morgante wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think (1) is probably the primary reason, along with the fun factor I mentioned above. But honestly, why can't we just start giving IQ tests? Or at least asking for SAT scores? We shouldn't have to run through training puzzles just to prove we're smart enough to build a site.

What kind of IQ tests? Math thinking? Language? Other? These tests are kinda old and don't prove anything besides the fact that the person has a certain level of intelligence but that doesn't mean they can code.

But it means that they can learn quickly.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#49

Post by robryan »

morgante wrote: post #17
deluxaran wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of IQ tests? Math thinking? Language? Other? These tests are kinda old and don't prove anything besides the fact that the person has a certain level of intelligence but that doesn't mean they can code.

> What kind of IQ tests? Math thinking? Language? Other? Both. They're not perfect, but I'm going to be picky and look for people who can generally reason well (both mathematically and verbally). > but that doesn't mean they can code. That's why you pair it with work samples. The ideal hire would be an impressive GitHub + evidence of intellect. The GitHub shows they have coding chops, while an IQ test usually means t…

What if all your most relevant work is owned by previous employers? Restricting hires to people with decent personal projects and/ or extensive open source contributions isn't ideal either.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#50

Post by redschell »

morgante wrote: post #6
rdtsc wrote: post #2

Two possible reasons: 1) I think a lot of start-ups want to hire "smart" people. Because they expect the new person to eventually wear many hats. Objective-C, Java, Android, CSS, server side concurrency, monitoring. An we've all seen Hunter and Schmidt reference that tokenadult usually posts when talk about interviewing comes around and it does seem that a general mental ability test (like an IQ test) combined with a…

I think (1) is probably the primary reason, along with the fun factor I mentioned above. But honestly, why can't we just start giving IQ tests? Or at least asking for SAT scores? We shouldn't have to run through training puzzles just to prove we're smart enough to build a site.

Management consulting firms and Wall Street banks have employed somewhat strict GPA and SAT/GMAT cutoffs for quite some time, but even they can't resist the allure of brainteasers during the interview process.

Google, on the other hand, appears to have done away with them, and now prefers to evaluate potential hires without giving too much weight to GPA or test scores: http://qz.com/96206/google-admits-those-infamous-brainteaser...

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