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Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

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Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#11

Post by jzzskijj »

eksith wrote: post #5

This may be another reason people are eager to start their own company in lieu of working for someone else. If the questions are rubbish and completely unrelated to the actual job, then there's a huge disconnect between the interviewer (or HR company, as a lot of places outsource that) and where the actual work is to take place. I blame both. The irony is that, in an effort to hire the "smartest" people, they leave o…

This may be another reason people are eager to start their own company in lieu of working for someone else.

If it is so, then it is a good thing. Right?

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#12

Post by rdtsc »

[deleted] wrote: post #10
rdtsc wrote: post #2

Two possible reasons: 1) I think a lot of start-ups want to hire "smart" people. Because they expect the new person to eventually wear many hats. Objective-C, Java, Android, CSS, server side concurrency, monitoring. An we've all seen Hunter and Schmidt reference that tokenadult usually posts when talk about interviewing comes around and it does seem that a general mental ability test (like an IQ test) combined with a…

[deleted]

Oh I agree, I am just saying they miss both the part about how GMA is best when paired with a work sample and that those puzzles are not necessarily good equivalents to an IQ test.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#14

Post by deluxaran »

morgante wrote: post #6
rdtsc wrote: post #2

Two possible reasons: 1) I think a lot of start-ups want to hire "smart" people. Because they expect the new person to eventually wear many hats. Objective-C, Java, Android, CSS, server side concurrency, monitoring. An we've all seen Hunter and Schmidt reference that tokenadult usually posts when talk about interviewing comes around and it does seem that a general mental ability test (like an IQ test) combined with a…

I think (1) is probably the primary reason, along with the fun factor I mentioned above. But honestly, why can't we just start giving IQ tests? Or at least asking for SAT scores? We shouldn't have to run through training puzzles just to prove we're smart enough to build a site.

What kind of IQ tests? Math thinking? Language? Other? These tests are kinda old and don't prove anything besides the fact that the person has a certain level of intelligence but that doesn't mean they can code.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#15

Post by kenster07 »

Xylakant wrote: post #7

I actually like asking math questions on interviews. It shows how people approach a problem. Asking code questions in an arbitrary interview setting shows just about nothing - no access to a reference doc, somebody peering over your shoulder. Heck, I couldn't code my way out of a wet paperback in that setting. Certainly, asking only math questions is stupid as well, people should know at least a little about the stuf…

"...a smart person eager to learn is a breeze compared to teaching problem solving to someone who memorized the reference manual."

I would guess that there is actually significant overlap between these two groups.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#16

Post by kenster07 »

deluxaran wrote: post #14
morgante wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think (1) is probably the primary reason, along with the fun factor I mentioned above. But honestly, why can't we just start giving IQ tests? Or at least asking for SAT scores? We shouldn't have to run through training puzzles just to prove we're smart enough to build a site.

What kind of IQ tests? Math thinking? Language? Other? These tests are kinda old and don't prove anything besides the fact that the person has a certain level of intelligence but that doesn't mean they can code.

Exactly. I would feel much more comfortable testing the job's requisite domain-specific knowledge directly.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#17

Post by morgante »

deluxaran wrote: post #14
morgante wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think (1) is probably the primary reason, along with the fun factor I mentioned above. But honestly, why can't we just start giving IQ tests? Or at least asking for SAT scores? We shouldn't have to run through training puzzles just to prove we're smart enough to build a site.

What kind of IQ tests? Math thinking? Language? Other? These tests are kinda old and don't prove anything besides the fact that the person has a certain level of intelligence but that doesn't mean they can code.

> What kind of IQ tests? Math thinking? Language? Other?

Both. They're not perfect, but I'm going to be picky and look for people who can generally reason well (both mathematically and verbally).

> but that doesn't mean they can code.

That's why you pair it with work samples.

The ideal hire would be an impressive GitHub + evidence of intellect. The GitHub shows they have coding chops, while an IQ test usually means they can react quickly and learn new skills.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#18

Post by kenster07 »

morgante wrote: post #3

It is rather unfortunate how little correlation most tech interviews have with their respective jobs. It's largely a lose-lose situation for everyone. Developers who could easily build great systems but aren't experts in graph theory get passed over while brilliant mathematicians who can't necessarily code get hired. Result? Companies simultaneously having to fire employees while facing a supposed talent crunch. Give…

Okay, but any specific suggestions on how to do that?

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#19

Post by eaxitect »

Totally agree, asking math puzzles (sometimes really hard ones) to develop a copycat iphone app? Interviewing like this is really off the rails.

I really understand that a startup with scarce resource would like to do its best shot. However as discussed long ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2385424), it is really frustrating that asking math puzzles are assumed as the best way to hire the best for the job.

Re: Dear Startups: stop asking me math puzzles to figure out if I can code

#20

Post by morgante »

kenster07 wrote: post #15
Xylakant wrote: post #7

I actually like asking math questions on interviews. It shows how people approach a problem. Asking code questions in an arbitrary interview setting shows just about nothing - no access to a reference doc, somebody peering over your shoulder. Heck, I couldn't code my way out of a wet paperback in that setting. Certainly, asking only math questions is stupid as well, people should know at least a little about the stuf…

"...a smart person eager to learn is a breeze compared to teaching problem solving to someone who memorized the reference manual." I would guess that there is actually significant overlap between these two groups.

> I would guess that there is actually significant overlap between these two groups.

I wouldn't. Smart people get bored sitting around memorizing things. They'd rather be thinking. Purely anecdotally, the smartest people I know rarely have encyclopedic knowledge of anything.

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