Only a few countries are teaching children how to think • Hacker News Board

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#131

Post by zeidrich » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 3:43 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

It's a poor article, I'd be skeptical about the book too. It talked very little about teaching critical thinking skills, and instead talked about different resource distribution between a few different country's schools.

I think that thinking is not something that can be taught, more that it's something that can be encouraged to be learned. In fact, I think overbearing instruction can encourage kids that they don't need to think for themselves. They will be provided the answer, and if they come to a different conclusion, the person with more authority is right.

I remember having a math test graded incorrectly. I knew I was right, I challenged the teacher. I was told that it was still wrong, but the teacher couldn't explain why, the teacher didn't really understand what they were teaching. I brought it home to my parents who also agreed that I was right, but the test wasn't worth enough to get into a fight over.

That experience was one that, if it were repeated, would have hurt my willingness to think critically.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#132

Post by polskibus » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 3:43 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #78

polskibus wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand I'd agree with you, on the other Poles whine a lot and need a lot of appreciation from others to believe in themselves. I have worked with many people educated in other countries in similar age as mine. We compared our educational experience - many admitted that in terms of scope, PL education seemed much better - more in-depth courses, more interesting problems solved during studies, etc. I'd say that yo…

I can't compare recent advances in educational systems, but I do have pretty good knowledge of at least what used to happen in high schools in the US and of schools and a technical university in France. The conclusions I'd draw (and mind you, this is knowledge from ~15-20 years ago, and it is my knowledge and my opinions): * Polish high school students indeed know more and are better at problem solving than most US h…

My experience comes from 7-3 yrs ago. Now I work in Poland and I can see that the bar has been lowered in terms of amount and scope of uni subjects (compared to 10-5 yes ago). My point wasn't that our system is superb-it is not. My point was that it is not that bad in relation to others. I strongly believe in keeping the bar (requirements for passing) very high, the system is doing the opposite while trying to mimick the West.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#133

Post by charlieflowers » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 3:46 PM UTC

hrktb wrote: post #17

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #2

Growing up, I declined to participate in the educational system (primarily to avoid harassment at school) and instead spent all of my time learning to program video games at home. So I would sleep through class, go home, and try to write Pong. My academic performance was nonexistent, but I came out of it with a career. I was wondering, was anyone else's childhood experience similar? Highschool felt at best a dungeon,…

I genuinely enjoyed school from primary sections to university, but now as a parent I feel more and more that the school is also there to act as a buffer between the parents and children and push society's values down the kid's throat, for better or worse. i.e. Sitting 8 hours a day in school is a way to make it normal to sit 8 hours a day in a cubicle. I don't know if I'd want my child to go through that and be able…

I feel that way too, so we're homeschooling our fifth grade daughter. BUT -- she hates it and fights us every step of the way, because she feels she would have more friends if she were in school like a "normal" kid.

And she probably would. If you're not on the "normal" track, it is hard to make relationships in the American culture today. Kids don't seem to meet and play in the yard like they used to.

So we're mulling this problem over. If anyone has found some solutions, I'd love to hear them.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#134

Post by tekalon » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 3:49 PM UTC

joshuaheard wrote: post #36

einhverfr wrote: post #4

Over here in Indonesia, most of the more prestigious schools follow the Singapore model. Kids do end up studying a lot, but on the whole it doesn't seem more than I did as a kid (in rural America). They tend to be pretty well-rounded, teach three languages (English, Bahasa, and Mandarin), and follow roughly the math courses I remember as a child though perhaps a year advanced by 4th grade. In the US, schools seem to…

"Education begins and ends at home, and what schools offer is largely a supplement for the home." I think it is the opposite. I pay the school to teach my kid. I don't expect to have them come home and require me to finish the job. Can you imagine if you went to a restaurant and they said, we prepared the food, but you must cook it. I work every day with my child on her homework, but it is not to teach her what she l…

You're supplementing her book learning, but she is observing you to learn life skills and how to think. It's your job to teach her financial skills, how to cook, give her the best example you can no how to have relationships with other people. Encourage her to play with other kids but also how to communicate with adults. Teach her how to be responsible and mature.

There is more to education than book learning (ABCs and 123s). You are supplementing her book learning while the school is supplementing her life skills learning.

Also- Papa Murphy's pizza. They make the pizza, but you take it home and cook it. Tastes better than delivery.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#135

Post by IsTom » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

Perhaps this is about how nobody here (in Poland) actually expects that school will teach you important things. Everyone who actually wanted to learn something did it on their own, sometimes with help of the teachers outside of educational system. The only positive experience I had was cooperation of my liceum with local university.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#136

Post by akulbe » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 4:24 PM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #4

Over here in Indonesia, most of the more prestigious schools follow the Singapore model. Kids do end up studying a lot, but on the whole it doesn't seem more than I did as a kid (in rural America). They tend to be pretty well-rounded, teach three languages (English, Bahasa, and Mandarin), and follow roughly the math courses I remember as a child though perhaps a year advanced by 4th grade. In the US, schools seem to…

I cannot even begin to say how much I agree with this. For once, someone who puts the priority of education where it truly belongs... AT HOME.

This isn't to say that education outside of the home has no place. It's just that it is something to be delegated, and shared.

However, I would posit that what happens often (at least in American society) in terms of attitude... is parents drop their kids off at the school's doorstep and assume that it is the schools's responsibility to educate them, and give them character training.

In my opinion, this is nothing less than an abdication of your responsibility as parents.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#137

Post by stephenhuey » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 4:34 PM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #111

peteretep wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have also memorised the formulas for d/s/t and f/a/p but struggle to see how these translate in to academic excellence of any type, or even why giving them to someone is encouraging mediocrity. There is (imho) nothing of value in memorizing simple formulas, and everything in the value of knowing how and when to apply those formulas, or where to Google for them.

The presumption that students have memorised the formulae allows you to build more complex tests with confidence that they will tease out understanding and not just computation. In my highschool physics exam, about 2/3rds was of questions based on memorised formulae. For example, the bouncing ball problem, with a series of questions to tease out our application of calculus, memorisation of compression rules and so on…

I'm no physicist, but even if the typical physicist has internalized tons of relationships expressed in formulas, students who have a cheat sheet of tons of formulas still have to frame the problem and then choose the right relationships to solve it, and hence they learn and grow the way we want them to. Maybe I'm wrong, but as a software developer, memorizing syntax speeds me up a little, but when it comes to the entire development lifecycle, the quality and length of time will depend much more on whether I framed the problem correctly and used the right relationships than whether I quickly recalled syntax. It's not totally apples to apples, but it seems like in the 21st century we can get so much more done if we focus on knowing where to look up information and have learned how to use it, much like how I look up APIs and design patterns as a routine part of my job and don't think it really slows me down to have to do that.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#138

Post by austenallred » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #99

austenallred wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Highschool felt at best a dungeon, and at worst a torture chamber." I had a largely similar experience, though my method of coping was a bit different. Simply put, day in and day out, I would try to manipulate systems as best as I could and raise hell. Every teacher had figured out a system that they wouldn't deviate from. Spend the first two weeks of each class studying how the teacher behaves and befriending the s…

That's very awesome, though at the same time I feel like you would be a terrifying person.

It was all in good fun, all of my teachers/the administration liked me (so far as I can tell), they just hated dealing with me.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#139

Post by kaitai » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 5:17 PM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #90

collyw wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a number of good friends who are teachers, including maths, and they talk about it a lot. While you may not think your system is good, it sounds like the UK system is encouraging mediocrity. For example, when I was at school 20 years ago, we had to memorise formulas for common thing ( speed = distance over time, and similar). Apparently the kids are given the formulas in exams now. There doesn't appear to be s…

I have also memorised the formulas for d/s/t and f/a/p but struggle to see how these translate in to academic excellence of any type, or even why giving them to someone is encouraging mediocrity. There is (imho) nothing of value in memorizing simple formulas, and everything in the value of knowing how and when to apply those formulas, or where to Google for them.

This is a slight tangent because it is about mechanical computational skills rather than formulas, but the idea is the same.

I am currently teaching a bunch of very bright graduate students from a number of countries. On the most recent midterm, students from countries that force people to learn to compute and learn some formulas finished in an hour, while US students and some others took two. US students in particular were caught up on figuring out the solution to x+y+z=1, x=y+z, y=4z. Just impossible.

US students in my class are wasting time on mechanical calculations rather than understanding the meanings of the theorems they illustrate, because they have weak computational skills. I can't write problems that are computationally easy enough. They are unable to apply their much-vaunted "creativity" and "critical thinking" because even once they Google a formula they can't carry out meaningful work with it.

I can Google how to use a hammer and a table saw, but I'll produce a crappier table than the person who has so much practice she can use them without thinking. That person can think about the final design while I think about not hitting my thumb or slicing off a digit. The argument about knowing how and when to apply formulas misses the fact that practice in applying those formulas is essential to competence.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#140

Post by hawkharris » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 6:07 PM UTC

In this article the journalist associates critical thinking with economic abilities. In other words, the local factory can't find laborers because children in the area lack reading and math skills. The author then goes on to argue that standardized testing is partially to blame for this phenomenon.

While journalists commonly make this leap, it's not necessarily an accurate one. In other words, standardized testing is not always at odds with critical thinking.

For example, South Korea, a nation with a very strong emphasis on standardized testing, consistently ranks in the world's top 5 universities, according to Pearson. Its students have strong reading and math skills, which prepare them to meet the challenges of many jobs.

We should question the myth that standardized testing always harms critical thinking. In some cases, I think, this argument is used as an excuse to justify American children's increasingly awful test scores.