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Re: Beer

#131

Post by gaadd33 »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #124
jiggy2011 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you are not operating dangerous machinery are you likely to be sued for simply allowing alcohol to be consumed? I can see that you might be held liable for some other problem of which alcohol might be a contributing factor but simply eliminating alcohol may well not solve that problem anyway. The potential benefits of allowing responsible alcohol consumption might be more than you think, if it helps provide…

> Assuming you are not operating dangerous machinery are you likely to be sued for simply allowing alcohol to be consumed? Providing alcohol to your employees or permitting them to consume alcohol on the job or at a company-sponsored event creates a whole host of potential liabilities. Here are a couple of real-world examples: http://www.riskandinsurance.com/story.jsp?storyId=533353814 http://www.mmdnewswire.com/faap…

Lawsuits are filed every day, has there been a ruling that just by serving alcohol they were liable? Or perhaps they are liable due to obvious negligence similar to how a bar can be found liable after a DUI if they over-served someone?

It is interesting that there doesn't seem to be the lawsuit worry or even the worry about "living with the fact that you were involved in an incident during which someone was seriously hurt or lost his or her life" at European companies.

Re: Beer

#132

Post by gaadd33 »

drtse4 wrote: post #15

Maybe it's because i'm european and not living in the US, but this kegerator in the office thing looks like something that gets old fast. The first weeks it may sound fun, beer in the office, branded beer glasses,etc... but i don't understand how someone could care as the novelty wears of. And i hope i don't need to comment on that "devs need beer" thing, c'mon, childish stuff. Does a subset of the employee likes bee…

A previous company I worked at had both a huge selection of wine and a kegerator in the office. I don't think the novelty of having a glass of beer or wine easily accessible at the end of the day ever really wore off, especially since the beer and wine selection constantly rotated.

At least in our case it seemed to be more of a social experience for different groups of the company to relax and talk to each other, as the company was maybe 25% devs, not everyone got to regularly work with others from other departments. Sure we could have all gone out to a bar but most bars nearby were always packed with the afterwork crowd making just walking around talking to each other a huge chore (think near the front of a concert style packed).

Re: Beer

#133

Post by tptacek »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #40
tptacek wrote: post #9

Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment? That's what I think it is. Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of beer in our Chicago office (we haul crates from Russian River and Three Floyds and Jolly Pumpkin). But nobody drinks while they work, and nobody drinks whole bottles; we open a bottle and a bunch of people taste. If it's F…

> I can't imagine this creating a problem. Are you serious? Talk to just about any attorney, and it won't take him or her more than a minute to rattle off a laundry list of scenarios that could literally turn your business upside down in an instant. Your question, "Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment?" suggests that you have some idea of what can go wrong but frankly, a hostile…

So, I have the experience of routinely seeing the opinions of attorneys on a whole range of issues, and while I'm sure you're right and they could come up with any number of hazards, if we made our decisions based on attorney worst case scenarios, we would never do anything.

It's funny because your response is very hostile, but we actually agree. I see how fraught alcohol in the workplace is. It's clear to me how it could cause problems. I have what I think is a fairly deep appreciation for the kinds of people that I work with, and I can make considered judgements based on that understanding.

But I definitely don't have a one-size-fits-all prescription for how to handle it. Other people on this thread talk about the glasses of beer they drink in meetings in the afternoon; I followed some teammates down on one of their smoke breaks and asked about it, and they were unanimous in judging that atmosphere frat-y. If you're routinely drinking substantially during the workday, I'm worried about your culture too. But: maybe you understand your team better than I do.

If I was in an office full of people I'd only known for 3-9 months, I'd probably be on the "no drinking in the office" side of this issue too.

Also, the idea (which I'm getting from this thread) that beer is an expected perk of startup dev jobs makes me a little queasy.

Re: Beer

#134

Post by tptacek »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #122
oh_sigh wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If what you said is true, why do many extremely large corporations serve beer at company events, and sometimes even stock it in the office? Are their attorneys incompetent?

My SO is an attorney so I'll respond by relaying a couple of things I hear first-hand on a regular basis: 1. Many clients ignore the advice they're given. 2. Big companies spend lots of money settling lawsuits that could have been completely avoided. A six or seven-figure lawsuit, which may require tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend, is an inconvenience at a billion dollar company. It can be the e…

Of course they ignore it. If they took every counsel opinion to the bank, they'd almost never sign a contract.

Re: Beer

#135

Post by tptacek »

bambax wrote: post #81
tptacek wrote: post #9

Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment? That's what I think it is. Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of beer in our Chicago office (we haul crates from Russian River and Three Floyds and Jolly Pumpkin). But nobody drinks while they work, and nobody drinks whole bottles; we open a bottle and a bunch of people taste. If it's F…

> Like a lot of things, I think porn is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of porn in our Chicago office... > Like a lot of things, I think guns are fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of guns in our Chicago office... (I'm sorry, did I misquote you?) Just because some things are fine if you're adult about it, doesn't make them appropriate at the office. Why would you have alcohol in…

What the fuck are you talking about? If someone brought a gun to the office, that would be their last day working with me.

I don't even know what to say about porn in the office. In 19 years working in this field, that is an issue that has never come up (unlike guns).

Re: Beer

#136

Post by tptacek »

adwf wrote: post #82
mathattack wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps there's a difference in culture between bottles versus kegs? The former suggests restraint, the latter doesn't?

Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. Just the presence of a small bottle fridge says to me - "We're a relaxed and fun place to work. We take your mental wellbeing seriously and don't mind you unwinding a little on a sunny friday afternoon." Whereas a keg just says "Drink up, there's plenty more". Either way, I think that having beer in the office is less of a perk and more of a culture indicator. In one easy move…

We don't have a small bottle fridge because we want to seem like a relaxed and fun place to work. We have a small fridge to hold Fresca, and enough people that really appreciate craft brewing that the bottom shelf of that fridge tends to have good bottles.

There's no company policy that keeps the fridge stocked; it's something that arose organically from the people that work in this office. Our MTV and NYC offices don't routinely have beer (the MTV office has the empties of the Dark Lord we bring them when we get out there).

A deliberate company policy of keeping the office plied with alcohol sounds to me like another one of those signals that maybe your company's relationship with alcohol is a bit fraught. (But that's easy for me to say; maybe I just like to drink so much that I can't see how fraught my existing relationship with drinking is? Who knows.)

Re: Beer

#137

Post by tptacek »

mcguire wrote: post #106
tptacek wrote: post #9

Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment? That's what I think it is. Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of beer in our Chicago office (we haul crates from Russian River and Three Floyds and Jolly Pumpkin). But nobody drinks while they work, and nobody drinks whole bottles; we open a bottle and a bunch of people taste. If it's F…

So, in other words, you could stop providing beer and nobody would notice, or care if they did? Is there anyone in your office who doesn't partake? Mormons, Moslems, Baptists, alcoholics, people who just don't care for beer?

Yep, there are. And, yeah, I think that's another good acid test: if not stocking beer would alter the quality of life for a job here, that'd be a good sign that there was a problem.

Re: Beer

#138

Post by 7Figures2Commas »

gaadd33 wrote: post #131
7Figures2Commas wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assuming you are not operating dangerous machinery are you likely to be sued for simply allowing alcohol to be consumed? Providing alcohol to your employees or permitting them to consume alcohol on the job or at a company-sponsored event creates a whole host of potential liabilities. Here are a couple of real-world examples: http://www.riskandinsurance.com/story.jsp?storyId=533353814 http://www.mmdnewswire.com/faap…

Lawsuits are filed every day, has there been a ruling that just by serving alcohol they were liable? Or perhaps they are liable due to obvious negligence similar to how a bar can be found liable after a DUI if they over-served someone? It is interesting that there doesn't seem to be the lawsuit worry or even the worry about "living with the fact that you were involved in an incident during which someone was seriously…

There was an interesting ruling in California a few months ago[1] and you don't need to look too hard to find cases in which an employer was found liable or settled[2].

Keep in mind that when a lawsuit is filed, the strength of your defense doesn't matter if you don't have the funds to pay a quality attorney. In many kinds of cases, you can easily rack up tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills before you even begin to address substantive matters, and plaintiff's counsel has no incentive to approach the matter in a fashion that reduces your costs.

[1] http://www.xperthr.com/news/marriott-ruling-highlights-risks...

[2] http://www.tprglaw.com/wolowsky-v-bum-steer-restaurants-inc

Re: Beer

#139

Post by 7Figures2Commas »

tptacek wrote: post #134
7Figures2Commas wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My SO is an attorney so I'll respond by relaying a couple of things I hear first-hand on a regular basis: 1. Many clients ignore the advice they're given. 2. Big companies spend lots of money settling lawsuits that could have been completely avoided. A six or seven-figure lawsuit, which may require tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend, is an inconvenience at a billion dollar company. It can be the e…

Of course they ignore it. If they took every counsel opinion to the bank, they'd almost never sign a contract.

I know criticizing attorneys is a fashionable pastime, but your comment is neither informed nor creative. I know it may come as a shock, but attorneys make a lot more money structuring, negotiating and drafting agreements than they do advising clients not to enter into them.

This said, the type of advice that I was referring to pertains to legal compliance and best practices in the context of running a business. Example:

1. An employer is advised by counsel that it must or should keep certain records.

2. It, for whatever reason, fails to do so.

3. As a result of its failure, it is fined, or is less able to defend itself in a lawsuit.

This sort of thing happens. Every single day. The only thing being taken to the bank is money that employers never had to part with in the first place.

Re: Beer

#140

Post by bambax »

tptacek wrote: post #135
bambax wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like a lot of things, I think porn is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of porn in our Chicago office... > Like a lot of things, I think guns are fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of guns in our Chicago office... (I'm sorry, did I misquote you?) Just because some things are fine if you're adult about it, doesn't make them appropriate at the office. Why would you have alcohol in…

What the fuck are you talking about? If someone brought a gun to the office, that would be their last day working with me. I don't even know what to say about porn in the office. In 19 years working in this field, that is an issue that has never come up (unlike guns).

...?? That was my point exactly? Just because some things are ok "when you're adult about it" don't make them ok at the office.

I'm not advocating bringing guns at the office, I'm advocating not giving free alcohol to your employees!!

I don't see what possible good could come from drinking at work, but I see a lot of bad.

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